GeneralDisorder Posted September 2, 2006 Share Posted September 2, 2006 Working on a newly aquired EA82, and found the culprit that's likley reponsible for most early t-belt breakage. The belts DO stretch. We always hear about how they last about 60k or so, but I've talked to others that have run them over 100k without breakage - the answer? You MUST adjust the tension. Now as to how often this should be done, that I'm not sure of but I have a set on my sedan without covers that has 20k on it since I took the covers off and they are still tight. I didn't replace them, only removed the covers, replaced a bad cam seal, and put the old belts back on. It may also be that once *new* belts have stretched, they will not really stretch a lot more, so one good adjustment at the proper mileage may be all that is needed for a long belt life. (videos are short - about 10 seconds each. 2MB or so, so those with slow connections be patient). http://home.comcast.net/~trilinear/belt1.avi http://home.comcast.net/~trilinear/belt2.avi The mileage on these belts in the video is unknown, but for sure it's considerable. Engine runs like a top, but was obviously a replacement engine to the car I pulled it from (yellow "I'm a junkyard engine" paint pen on the torque converter read "EA82" ). I almost couldn't beleive it ran without shredding the belts (and ran quite well really) - there's at least 3/4" of slop in both belts. I'm not pushing on them really at all with my hand in the video, I'm just lifting the belt up and down to show the play in it.... GD Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaveT Posted September 2, 2006 Share Posted September 2, 2006 Those seem loose to me. Years ago I did the retension thing evry 10K or so. They still broke around 50K. I wish I could remember where, but I picked up the info that Subaru had changed the belt replacement interval to 40K miles. I found that if you run the engine for 5 seconds after replacing the belts, then re-tension, a lot of extra slack is removed. I do this before reassembling anything further - you also get to see that the belts are running true. Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeneralDisorder Posted September 2, 2006 Author Share Posted September 2, 2006 Yeah - I don't run covers so I get to see the belts every time I lift the hood I'm at 20k on my sedan's belts, and they were used when I removed the covers to do a cam seal. Who knows how many miles are on them - car's got 228k, and the last known belt change was 165k per the sharpie notes on the upper radiator support . Still look alright - no evidence of freying or any cracks, and nicely tight too. The ones you retentioned every 10k that blew at 50.... were those OEM or some other maker? GD Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daeron Posted September 2, 2006 Share Posted September 2, 2006 i would think that frequent retensioning would naturally lead to premature wear... in my mind, any retensioning beyond one at say, 10K or 20K, you would want to tighten but maybe not quite as tight as they were when they were first installed... Maybe I'm wrong, but I would tend to think that once they've "given" a certain amount they aren't "giving" anymore they are "tearing." thoughts? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bgd73 Posted September 2, 2006 Share Posted September 2, 2006 that is a frustrating sight. the tensions do thier job arguing with teeth on belt that stay with the teeth driven pulleys.. so tensioner is going on useless until the belt finalyy has had enough. That does take quite sime time to get to where the belts in video. I was surprised to find some new belts doing similar, just hanging on to the set distance on metal pulleys over ruling the rubber belts imperfections.Whatever keeps running ya know what I mean Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Petersubaru Posted September 2, 2006 Share Posted September 2, 2006 the belts may look good and all, but there is no way you can tell what is happening inside the belt..timing belts wear from the inside out...if the belt needs to be tightened over and over again at various intervals..is it because the tensioner has slipped a little, which is no problem,..but if the belt is actually stretching, it is near it's end Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Petersubaru Posted September 2, 2006 Share Posted September 2, 2006 up to this day I don't know if the OEM belts are really any better than other companies..way back when, my new 86 broke a belt at 15K miles..but those were the days when the belt had to be changed out at 25K mi(Canada)... subaru had to issue a statement informing people about the increased belt exchange intervals (code for a poorly engineered belt)..soon after that, subaru said that they came out with a new and improved belt (60K mi..up from 50K..but these belts were breaking on some cars much, much sooner).. improvements are very limited..you can not make the belt wider, maybe slightly thicker but in reality there is not a lot of room for some real improvement..various specs have been thru-out the years and it is a hit & miss situation...on a couple of occassions I have let the OEM belt break on there own and it seems to be like clock work ( about53-55K mi each time)....I think the general feeling about changing belts is at about 50k mi ( at least by Gates)..I change mine out at 45K mi if it needs it or not .. easy enough to do..both cars in total have about 440,000 mi... Yeah - I don't run covers so I get to see the belts every time I lift the hood I'm at 20k on my sedan's belts, and they were used when I removed the covers to do a cam seal. Who knows how many miles are on them - car's got 228k, and the last known belt change was 165k per the sharpie notes on the upper radiator support . Still look alright - no evidence of freying or any cracks, and nicely tight too. The ones you retentioned every 10k that blew at 50.... were those OEM or some other maker? GD Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrKrazy Posted September 2, 2006 Share Posted September 2, 2006 I found that if you run the engine for 5 seconds after replacing the belts, then re-tension, a lot of extra slack is removed. I do this before reassembling anything further - you also get to see that the belts are running true. Dave Aye, I run the engine real quick after installing the belts, then re-tension them and make sure they are still where they are supposed to be. Those belts are really loose, surpised they didn't jump some teeth....just another reminder to check things here and there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikeshoup Posted September 2, 2006 Share Posted September 2, 2006 Its amazing how loose these belts can be the engine still running. When I got the wagon, the tensioner for the p/s was missing a bolt. I didn't learn of this, until the belt became really loose, and started thwacking itself against the belt covers. The car still ran like a top. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NorthWet Posted September 2, 2006 Share Posted September 2, 2006 My question to all of you that have retensioned (or just done the initial install): Do you use the tool (or its equivalent) to tension the cam pulley before releasing the tensioner lock? If not, I think that any conclusions drawn regarding retensioning are suspect. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeneralDisorder Posted September 2, 2006 Author Share Posted September 2, 2006 Tool?!? What does it look like? Can we make one easily? I'm all about using the right tool if it might make the difference. Not having an EA82 FSM is starting to get annoying. GD Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NorthWet Posted September 2, 2006 Share Posted September 2, 2006 The "tool" is a pin-wrench that fits the cam sprocket holes and is used to apply torque to tension the "pull" run of the t-belt (ensuring all slack is on the slack side). When I made mine I misread the torque-spec needed (in-lb, ft-lb... what's the difference, eh??? ) so I built the dang thing like a brick ****house. (Looked like one, too!) My FSM is AWOL, so I can't remember the exact spec, but the torque-spec is somewhere around 10-20 ft-lbs. (My memory says that I designed mine for 120 ft-lbs, so 10ft-lbs is probably right.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PoorManzImpreza Posted September 2, 2006 Share Posted September 2, 2006 18 ftlb of torque is the correct to apply the right tension on the belt, 25 if both the head gasket and belt are new on the long belt (distributer) side... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeneralDisorder Posted September 3, 2006 Author Share Posted September 3, 2006 Sweet - I think I'll build myself a socket for it. GD Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hooziewhatsit Posted September 3, 2006 Share Posted September 3, 2006 Sweet - I think I'll build myself a socket for it. GD I've seen pictures of using a spare cam sprocket, two bolts through two of the existing holes, and a handle welded to it. This is something I've never actually done (tensioning them properly) My car has 30K on the current set of belts so far. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Petersubaru Posted September 3, 2006 Share Posted September 3, 2006 with the proper tool and torqued to specs, in almost all cases there shouldn't ever be a need to re- tighten the belts...but it never hurts to check them from time to time Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaveT Posted September 3, 2006 Share Posted September 3, 2006 I made a "socket" out of 1/2" thick aluminium and 2 1/4" bolts so I could do the torque as in the FSM. Never did it any other way. When I retensioned every 10K, they barely moved, so they weren't continually stretching. I have always put the covers back on, except on my 90 - since reading about all the guys not using the covers and having no trouble. The retension every 10K was a long time ago. Probably Subaru belts. Mostly been using NAPA Gates belts now. I also found I could use bungee cords to keep tension on the torque wrench while tightening the tensioner bolts. Care must be used to not put forces on the wrench that would make errors. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeneralDisorder Posted September 3, 2006 Author Share Posted September 3, 2006 I've seen pictures of using a spare cam sprocket, two bolts through two of the existing holes, and a handle welded to it. Yep - I already know how I'll do it. I'll use a spare sprocket, and weld two bolts to two of the holes on the inside, and then weld an old socket to the center for attachement of my torque wrench. I've already made a tool to hold them while removing the bolts, so this will be a nice addition to my "EA82 timing belt tool kit". GD Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phizinza Posted September 3, 2006 Share Posted September 3, 2006 My answer to timming belt problems... EA81. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeneralDisorder Posted September 3, 2006 Author Share Posted September 3, 2006 Sure - but even here on the west coast they are starting to become scarce. Remember the last year for our EA81's was 89, and that was only for the hatchback of which not many were sold. 87 for the Brat. For off-road I run nothing but the EA81. But for street the EA82 (non-turbo) is really a decent engine. The belts are not much hassle with the covers off. Plus the few extra HP is nice, and they rev a little higher. All that together with their dime-a-dozen quality right now makes for a winning combo for cheap transportation around here. I value my EA81's highly - I've got four engines in various states, and ALL of them will run again eventually. Hell - I just ordered a Delta cam for one. But all that's not stopping me from taking advantage of sub-$100 vehicles. GD Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phizinza Posted September 3, 2006 Share Posted September 3, 2006 Yeah, cheap is good. Here supply of EA81's is about the same as EA82's (only cheaper.) One other thing I have noticed is my brothers EA81, which came in a a old rust heap, has more power then all three EA82's I've driven. (talking all carbed engines here.) Of cause, with the EA81 it looks like it might have been rebuilt. Has new points, rotor, cap, plugs, air filter, ect ect... It goes very hard, even close to my dual carb EA81 with the DC heads. Although it doesn't have the same top end (after 5K it flatterns out) I always seem to have problems with t-belt tensioner pullies on any engine... Thats why I love my EA81 (probably to death) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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