keltik Posted September 18, 2006 Share Posted September 18, 2006 Manually shifting an automatic? I'm sure there are "activities" that are more pointless and boring than this, but I'm at a loss to think of what they might be. Well, maybe watching cricket on TV. Maybe. Some of us (meaning myself) do it to feel better after buying an automatic slushbox when we really wanted a manual. I also do it because my TCU cant keep up with my right foot and enjoys leaving me between gears when i REALLY need the power. Ive gotten over enthusiastic and shifted from D4 into neutral on the occasion....but i always wondered what would happen if i hit reverse one day. Either way my verdict is go for it - shift it yourself and show that computer whos boss. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guy123 Posted September 18, 2006 Share Posted September 18, 2006 "I have no desire ever to shift my car out of drive just to get some power up a hill. Maybe I have a transmission that actually works?" I've always been under the impression that it's easier on the car as a whole to put it in a lower gear when going up a steep hill... and I know from experience that it's a necessity and very very helpful to put it in a lower gear when decending a steep hill- it allows for a lot more control and safety. They put those 3,2,1 selections on there for a reason, and I can't see how it could be damaging in any way to be shifting regularly into those lower selections... I'd challange anyone to find any damaging affects. As for setting the parking brake before putting the tranny in park, I've always done this, I was taught to do this, and my 1996 Legacy's manual instructs to do this as well. I'm curious though, is there really any real stress put on the tranny when put into park without the parking brake? I assume so, but am curious if someone knows for sure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keltik Posted September 18, 2006 Share Posted September 18, 2006 Ive noticed if i set the hand brake and then shove it into park, i can get back into my car a pull off happy. If i hold the car on park and then set the hand brake - when i pull it out of park again i hear a big CLUNK and the car jerks a bit so theres definately some strain on the transmission doing it that way. I dont know if the transmission park thing is designed to hold the cars weight but my owners manual says no. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NVBigBlue Posted September 18, 2006 Share Posted September 18, 2006 Hmmph, there's plenty of hills where I live and I have no desire ever to shift my car out of drive just to get some power up a hill. Maybe I have a transmission that actually works? Manarius, I'm not picking on you here, but (your profile says 18) as a "young" driver, you may be a bit lacking in the experience area.... Look, the whole idea of a transmission (manual or auto) is to keep the engine in the proper torque range for the speed you are traveling, e.g., level ground, 25mph might equal 1500rpm and 4th gear...... the same speed on a 6% grade hill, might equal 2500 rpm and 2nd gear... The design of an automatic transmission is to duplicate the exact same thing as a manual tranny, except replace the manual portion, e.g., the person. Look at it this way.... You have a manual tranny, and you decide to drive around at 4.5 mph all day long, what gear would you use? Probably 1st right? Now step on the gas and drive 20..... high rpm, but the tranny doesn't care..... OK, same place but, your car is an auto. What gear is it going to stay in ? 1st..... then 2nd....then 3rd....why..... torque requirements, throttle position etc....the tranny says no torque needed, shift gears.... If I decide to drive 35mph (low speed) and "lock" the tranny in 2nd gear (mid torque) and drive around at 3000 rpm (mid rpm) all day am I hurting the tranny? No. I might not get very good gas milage, but the tranny isn't going to care. (assuming cooling, rpm, etc are all within specs...) Here's a good example of manually shifting an atuo.... Towing a small tent trailer. Start down the road, no problem, 70mph, shifts up to 3rd. Small hill, no problem, slows down to 65 but stays in 3rd. Flattens out, speeds up to 70, 3rd gear. Start up a hill. Slows down to 60, shifts to 2nd. Speeds up to 65, shifts to 3rd....Slows down to 60, shifts to 2nd...Speeds up to 65 shifts to 3rd... Repeat.... Now same hill...but manual shift.... Start up a hill. Slows down to 60, shifts to 2nd. Speeds up to 65, shifts to 3rd....Slows down to 60, manual shift to 2nd...Speeds up to 65.... slight decrease in throttle..... holds 65 to top of hill... top hill, manual shift to 3rd.... Most trucks do this exact same thing with a "tow mode" button on the shifter....it tells the tranny to hold the shift pattern for slightly longer.... The modern auto tranny is pretty robust. i've seen (and done ) some pretty extreme things to them....and they keep on ticking....over-reving a modern tranny isn't going to hurt it....but over heating it will...and manually shifting it isn't going to hurt it either either.... yes, "drive" to "reverse" might damage it simply by the torque placed on the gear set, but I've seen several trannys dropped from "drive" to "reverse" or "park" at over 70 mph and other than killing the engine (and leaving some cool skids marks on the road) do no damage......(they usually kick to a "free-wheel" state...) And Keltik.... that's probably the best way to do things.... set brake and the place tranny in Park. That way the vehicle doesn't roll and place torque on the "parking pin". Notice that when you park an auto...the car usually will roll a slight amount before stopping (maybe a few inches or so...). It takes a bit for the "parking pin" to lock in place and hold the drive shaft. On hills, the weight of the car put stress on the pin and when you shift out of Park the car will "clunk" into gear. But yes, in cold weather, the brakes CAN freeze to the rotors (or drums) and keep you from moving.... NV Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jamal Posted September 18, 2006 Share Posted September 18, 2006 I do it all the time for lots of reasons. Primarily just because I like the added control and wish I had a manual (but when your parents surprise you with the car one day in high school you can't really complain too much). 1) While driving around town. When I leave my parking lot and go down the alley to get on the street it shifts 5 times in D. Why have the transmission shift 5 times when I can put it in 1st and leave it there the whole 1/2 block at 10mph? Why have it in 4th when I'm only going 40mph? I'd prefer to sacrifice the .5mpg for the immediate and extra acceleration available. 2) For performance. If I'm on a spirited drive I don't want the transmission constantly upshifting and then have wait for it to kick down to 2nd rather un-smoothly midcorner when it's time to accelerate. If I downshift before the corner I get a bit of engine braking going in, and then immediate, smooth acceleration coming out because it's already in the right gear. 3) I don't like how the car downshifts sometimes. If I'm going 60 and stomp it in D, it drops to 2nd at ~5800 rpms, runs to redline, and then upshifts to 3rd. If I put in 3-manual, it hits third as it's getting into peak torque and doesn't make a 4->2 shift at full throttle. 4) For traction. When you put the selector in 1, power is split 50/50 at all times. Is any of this going to create a significant amount of extra wear in the transmission? Doubtful. It's probably better for it because it shifts less, and has fewer high-stress shifts. The only thing I try to avoid doing are downshifts to high rpm (as a note if you were to put the selector in 1st at 80 it won't downshift that far until you slow down enough) because they're a little jerky, but you can blip the throttle a bit to "rev-match" so to speak. Yes, I actually heel-toe an automatic. As far as the parking brake goes, the only stress on the parking pawl comes when you're on a hill. There will be tension in it that makes it harder (and sometimes impossible) to shift out of park. On flat ground it doesn't matter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BruceyWV Posted September 18, 2006 Share Posted September 18, 2006 Manarius: Our cars arent exactly the same, I'm driving the heaviest Subaru available that year, at 3500 lb curb weight. It also has the worse power to weight ratio of any Subaru that year. With a full load of tools and equipment in the trunk, and usually have a passenger or two with me. Easily 4100 lbs counting tools plus 450 lbs for the both of us. A lot of work for that little 2.5 liter engine to do. Besides the terrain difference, I'm not sure thats a fair comparison Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manarius Posted September 18, 2006 Share Posted September 18, 2006 Manarius,I'm not picking on you here, but (your profile says 18) as a "young" driver, you may be a bit lacking in the experience area.... You better take it easy there playing the age card. I consider this the first shot in the flame war - be warned. Personal attacks are NOT acceptable on this board via the rules and agreement signed at registration. Pulling a trailer and driving around normally are two entirely different things. Sure, if you're trying to keep the car from continously locking and unlocking the TC, 3rd is a sure bet. But, that's pulling a trailer, that's not driving around normally. Tell me, why would I want to drive around in 2nd all day long at 30 mph when I can do it in 4th plus lockup? Just for the extra torque? Give me a break. Our Legacies aren't performance vehicles. They aren't turbo (well, most of us aren't) and they aren't small and light. The 4EAT wasn't designed to be shifting back and forth just because the driver wants to have a little extra torque. The 4EAT was designed to get the job done, and shifting it through the gears just to drive it like a stick isn't worth the time or effort. If you want a stick car, buy a stick car. And when you're junking your car because you just had to manual shift it all those times just because you wanted to, and I'm driving my non-manually shifted car with stock tranny at 250k miles, we'll see who's laughing all the way to the bank. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Audiophobe Posted September 18, 2006 Author Share Posted September 18, 2006 Manually shifting an automatic? I'm sure there are "activities" that are more pointless and boring than this, but I'm at a loss to think of what they might be. Well, maybe watching cricket on TV. Maybe. This is one of the more "interesting" comments I've read on this thread and surprised that anyone would ask. It's not like I don't have a job, family, or other interests and that shifting an auto tranny is what I look forward to when I wake up evryday. And I certainly shift much less than 5% of my ride time. But why do I ask and want to? -Better response- For example, rather than floor it and wait to have the tranny downshift to say, get on the highway or go uphill I manually downshift to get the tranny to shift quicker and -One that some people won't understand, sometimes just for the fun of it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigMattyD Posted September 18, 2006 Share Posted September 18, 2006 You better take it easy there playing the age card. I consider this the first shot in the flame war - be warned. Personal attacks are NOT acceptable on this board via the rules and agreement signed at registration. Pulling a trailer and driving around normally are two entirely different things. Sure, if you're trying to keep the car from continously locking and unlocking the TC, 3rd is a sure bet. But, that's pulling a trailer, that's not driving around normally. Tell me, why would I want to drive around in 2nd all day long at 30 mph when I can do it in 4th plus lockup? Just for the extra torque? Give me a break. Our Legacies aren't performance vehicles. They aren't turbo (well, most of us aren't) and they aren't small and light. The 4EAT wasn't designed to be shifting back and forth just because the driver wants to have a little extra torque. The 4EAT was designed to get the job done, and shifting it through the gears just to drive it like a stick isn't worth the time or effort. If you want a stick car, buy a stick car. And when you're junking your car because you just had to manual shift it all those times just because you wanted to, and I'm driving my non-manually shifted car with stock tranny at 250k miles, we'll see who's laughing all the way to the bank. I don't think he was trying to start a flame war, and to tell you the truth, I was surprised to see your age at 18, as many 18 year olds would be the crazy- manual shifting type. It seems that you have a better understanding of all things automotive than a lot of people out there. What I think he was saying is that at a younger age, you may not have experienced times when it is desirable to shift into another gear. I rarely need or desire to do it. It depends on the driving conditions and your car's abilities, loading, etc. I don't think it's a good idea to manually shift an automatic all the time or for the "fun" of it, but there are times when its useful, and they have already been stated. If you don't find it necessary or useful, then you won't be doing it. But some people will, and it's ok. Matt D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SuBrat84 Posted September 18, 2006 Share Posted September 18, 2006 "It's Okay!" for teh win. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guy123 Posted September 18, 2006 Share Posted September 18, 2006 "And when you're junking your car because you just had to manual shift it all those times just because you wanted to, and I'm driving my non-manually shifted car with stock tranny at 250k miles, we'll see who's laughing all the way to the bank." I agree that manual shifting an automatic transmission seems like a pointless task... personally I don't get any sort of kit out of it the way I do driving stick... but there still hasn't been anything presented here that shows that anything bad is actually done to the transmission by doing this. Obviously some people like this manual shifting idea, some don't. But is there really anything tangible that is being risked by doing it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
burtonsnowman Posted September 18, 2006 Share Posted September 18, 2006 You better take it easy there playing the age card. I consider this the first shot in the flame war - be warned. Personal attacks are NOT acceptable on this board via the rules and agreement signed at registration.All right...easy there, cowboy... No one was trying to make a personal attack. He has a valid point. In the words of the Fab Four... "Let it be" And as for the manual shifting...there is a reason for those numbers and shifter positions being there. If we weren't supposed to use them, your shifter would have only four positions: PARK, REVERSE, NEUTRAL and DRIVE. Fortunately for us, car manufacturers like to let us have some fun... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NVBigBlue Posted September 18, 2006 Share Posted September 18, 2006 You better take it easy there playing the age card. I consider this the first shot in the flame war - be warned. Personal attacks are NOT acceptable on this board via the rules and agreement signed at registration. Pulling a trailer and driving around normally are two entirely different things. Sure, if you're trying to keep the car from continously locking and unlocking the TC, 3rd is a sure bet. But, that's pulling a trailer, that's not driving around normally. Tell me, why would I want to drive around in 2nd all day long at 30 mph when I can do it in 4th plus lockup? Just for the extra torque? Give me a break. Our Legacies aren't performance vehicles. They aren't turbo (well, most of us aren't) and they aren't small and light. The 4EAT wasn't designed to be shifting back and forth just because the driver wants to have a little extra torque. The 4EAT was designed to get the job done, and shifting it through the gears just to drive it like a stick isn't worth the time or effort. If you want a stick car, buy a stick car. And when you're junking your car because you just had to manual shift it all those times just because you wanted to, and I'm driving my non-manually shifted car with stock tranny at 250k miles, we'll see who's laughing all the way to the bank. I wasn't playing any kind of card with my comment. I wasn't implying that your age made you less important or that you were just a "silly kid" or anything like that... simply that you may not have as much driving experience as an older person, in the same way that I don't have as much driving experience as someone who is say 75 years old... Sorry if you took it the wrong way. Why would someone want to drive around in 2nd all day at 30mph? I don't know. Why do some people find it neccessary to lower their car, put wide tires on it, put a big wing on the back, and make the tailpipe go buzzzzzz? :-\ I was simply illustrating that, while it might not make sense to do so, it isn't going to hurt the tranny. I think it really comes down to a persons own driving style. If you feel your vehicle is performing as designed and you have no wish to shift manually...don't. But I, personally, really don't think manually shifting it is going to shorten the lifespan of the tranny. That being said, there is the possibility that manually shifting a tranny could wear out the bushings and such of the linkages faster than normal. NV Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idosubaru Posted September 18, 2006 Share Posted September 18, 2006 i had to check the URL to make sure this wasn't nabisoc. mountains do require downshifting to maintain speed, that's very typical depending on the gearing. i haven't driven every possible subaru auto and gear ratio available but all of the ones i have driven require shifting when driving through the mountains, to maintain highway speed over very steep inclines. good luck anyone proving either way, there's no quantitative testing to look at. the 4EAT is fairly robust and will withstand a good deal. this is such a benign issue, next thread y'all! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Subarunation 713 Posted September 18, 2006 Share Posted September 18, 2006 This question was just asked to "Click and Clack" from Car Talk in this Sunday's paper. Funny, there must be several people who wonder the same thing. Their advice, just don't jam it in reverse! Some have already mentioned the same thing....from personal experience. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cookie Posted September 18, 2006 Share Posted September 18, 2006 I have four cars and the two old Pontiacs are automatic. The Subaru and BMW are five speeds. the only time I manaually shift an automatic tends to be on steep hills. In SF the hills can make your car shift up and bog and then slam downshift. It is a lot easier to select second and hold it in and just watch your rpms. Sometimes you have abit more confidence on a downhill too in a lower gear. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jamal Posted September 18, 2006 Share Posted September 18, 2006 The 4EAT wasn't designed to be shifting back and forth just because the driver wants to have a little extra torque. The 4EAT was designed to get the job done, and shifting it through the gears just to drive it like a stick isn't worth the time or effort. If you want a stick car, buy a stick car. And when you're junking your car because you just had to manual shift it all those times just because you wanted to, and I'm driving my non-manually shifted car with stock tranny at 250k miles, we'll see who's laughing all the way to the bank.[/font][/b] You should really come up with a better argument than "it wasn't designed for that." If it wasn't, the car probably wouldn't have manual selection, and in the case of a BC/BF, a manual button. There would be P,R,N,D. I have 165k and I pretty much constantly manually shift my car. Anyway, explain to me how having it in 3rd most of the time instead of 4th when I'm not on the highway is going to cause any more wear. Explain how having the transmission shift LESS is going to cause any more wear, and explain how avoiding high stress downshifts to 6000 rpm at full throttle is going to cause any more wear. Then maybe someone will take all your "oh no it's bad for it" arguments a little more seriously instead of making comments about your age. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnceggleston Posted September 18, 2006 Share Posted September 18, 2006 so,... are you a folder or a scruncher??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jamal Posted September 18, 2006 Share Posted September 18, 2006 folder Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manarius Posted September 19, 2006 Share Posted September 19, 2006 Mmmph, I'm tired of arguing. It serves no point. The manual says what you're to do with those gears, and regular driving isn't one of them. I stand by that, the rest of you do what you like. Mind you, it's the ricers who shift the gears in their auto's cause they were too impatient to wait around to get a MT car. There's a reason all the seasoned mechanics tell you not to do it. I know my mechanic who has 30 years of experiece in foreign vehicles told me not to. He also told me not to put in the FWD fuse, yet some people around here do that too so.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WoodsWagon Posted September 19, 2006 Share Posted September 19, 2006 MY MOM shift's her taurus manualy in the winter. If the linkages were so weak that they couldn't put up with a bit of extra use, you would hear of them breaking all the time if the car was parked for an extened period and the cable rusted. That's right, all the lever is moving is a stupid cable, just like the E-brake cable. Nothing fancy about it, and unlikely to wear out with manual shifting. I don't think that putting the car in manual mode 1st locks it in 4wd either, so there is no binding issue. The question was: Is shifting an automatic OK? The general consesus with supporting evidence is: Yes, but it may not be needed most of the time. Two people disagree, but don't present much in the way of evidence except "an experienced mech. I know said so" Well, an experienced mechanic I know who worked in a subaru dealership for a long time still thinks that the EGR system works by reburning the exhaust to make sure it's all used up. Experienced mech's can be wrong. As for the age coment: We drive since we are 15.5 years old on the street, often much younger off-road. You pick up a fair bit of experience in that time, the rest of the years are just honing the skills. The problem isn't the age, it's the I'm right, your stupid and wrong attitude. Note my age. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SuBrat84 Posted September 19, 2006 Share Posted September 19, 2006 And calling us ricers for shifting an auto tranny isn't trying to start a flame war? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigMattyD Posted September 19, 2006 Share Posted September 19, 2006 This is starting to get really boring now... But I give a hearty thanks to all who posted their comments. It just seems to be going around in circles now.. Big D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoahDL88 Posted September 19, 2006 Share Posted September 19, 2006 I'm a seasoned mechanic, and i say if shifting your auto makes you happy, then do it. Gosh, i wish i was 18 and knew everything Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
burtonsnowman Posted September 19, 2006 Share Posted September 19, 2006 Gosh, i wish i was 18 and knew everything Oh, dang... In the words of Bon Jovi... I think SOMEONE was just "shot through the heart..." That was cold, man...I don't know if that was called for...(but I do like your style!) But I do think this thread is beginning to spiral into boring, redundant, pointless argument status FAST... (But that's just coming from a 17-year-old who happens to know everything, too.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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