OB99W Posted April 6, 2007 Share Posted April 6, 2007 Anyone happen to have a pic? Or could describe it so I can find it plz. Thanks alot See: http://endwrench.com/images/pdfs/Fuel.pdf You're welcome. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cougar Posted April 6, 2007 Share Posted April 6, 2007 Good suggestion about using a vacuum gauge, and also the link for the TPS, OB99W. You always have informative and helpful posts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OB99W Posted April 6, 2007 Share Posted April 6, 2007 Good suggestion about using a vacuum gauge, and also the link for the TPS, OB99W. You always have informative and helpful posts. Well, I don't know about "always" , but thanks for the compliment, Cougar. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sonicfrog Posted April 6, 2007 Share Posted April 6, 2007 No it's not running abnormally hot it stay right in the middle temp range and doesn't move. I didn't see what car or engine you have, but on Subaru's I've owned the needle was always 1/8 to 1/4 on the gauge. With the bad radiator Murph's temp was at 1/2, and would only run hotter if I was going up hill, like on the Grapevine. But there is no question the poor flow rate of the radiator was causing me fuel mixture (and milage) grief. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OB99W Posted April 6, 2007 Share Posted April 6, 2007 On my own '99 OB, the temp gauge tends to mainly sit (once the engine is fully warmed) at about one "tick" below 1/2 scale. The owner's manual says the entire range of the gauge, except for beyond the next-to-the-last heavy tick, is "normal". Personally, I'd be more than a bit concerned if mine got near those upper marks . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idosubaru Posted April 6, 2007 Share Posted April 6, 2007 the bad catalytic converters i've seen ran like crap, but certainly worth a try. how about just disconnecting the cat for a week and see if your mileage goes up and that 4,000 RPM glitch goes away rather than spend a ton of money to replace the converter. how are the brakes? the last time i replaced my XT6 front pads and my OBS front pads, both got about 4 mpg after replacing the front pads and rotors. maybe they were dragging too much, i don't know. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OB99W Posted April 6, 2007 Share Posted April 6, 2007 [...]how are the brakes? the last time i replaced my XT6 front pads and my OBS front pads, both got about 4 mpg after replacing the front pads and rotors. maybe they were dragging too much, i don't know.Certainly dragging brakes could cost mpg, but of course that wouldn't explain the high CO and HC readings at idle that caused the car to fail emission I/M. Usually even if the rotors are a bit rough or rusty, if the caliper is operating freely the pads/pistons get knocked back with driving and there shouldn't be much impact on mpg. Gary, did you rebuild the calipers (or relube the sliding parts) at the time of pad/rotor replacement? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gyuunuuya Posted April 6, 2007 Author Share Posted April 6, 2007 Ok so I buy/rent a vacuum gauge and hook it up to a vacuum line? Sorry but I'm unclear what a vacuum gange does other then the obvious. New cat installed should only be like 200 bucks, but it that's not my problem and it is a air flow issure or whatever is causing my mixture to become rich it will destroy that new cat very quickly. So checking what you guys said would be smartest. I took apart the IAC last week and cleaned it all up as previously stated but the line where the PCV runs was very gummed up on the tubing. Is that normal? I really apprieciate all the help guys I'm down to do whatever makes sense. Your alot better then these bastards that keep telling me to put better fuel in the car and that will solve my problems. So it seems like a choice between a new radiator, catalaic converter, or a new frigin car if I don't get this fixed soon LOL. Is the TPS in the IAC? I'll go through that pdf u linked me and see what I can dig up in there but quickly skimming it I saw parts about the IAC and the MAF and I saw a section on the TPS report but didn't see anything that soubnds to clear as to where it was stated, again I'm gonna look right now more throughly. thanks guys Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gyuunuuya Posted April 6, 2007 Author Share Posted April 6, 2007 Also anyone else out there have a 92 legancy the hits halfway mark on their thermostat? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cougar Posted April 7, 2007 Share Posted April 7, 2007 You should read the information on the link that OB99W provided. The info states that the TPS sensor is mounted on the throttle body and shows a drawing of what it looks like. One thing I think that needs to be looked at before you go much further is the spark plug condition. You can tell a lot just by checking the plugs out. Perhaps one cylinder is not working as it should be. Another thing I think that needs to be checked is the coolant temp sensor for the ECU. The voltage should be checked across it to see how it is really responding to the engine temperature. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sonicfrog Posted April 7, 2007 Share Posted April 7, 2007 You should read the information on the link that OB99W provided. The info states that the TPS sensor is mounted on the throttle body and shows a drawing of what it looks like. One thing I think that needs to be looked at before you go much further is the spark plug condition. You can tell a lot just by checking the plugs out. Perhaps one cylinder is not working as it should be. Another thing I think that needs to be checked is the coolant temp sensor for the ECU. The voltage should be checked across it to see how it is really responding to the engine temperature. Agreed. I had a honda once (well twice, but the problem was with the first car, a 76 civic) that had problems because a mechanic put champion plugs in it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OB99W Posted April 7, 2007 Share Posted April 7, 2007 Ok so I buy/rent a vacuum gauge and hook it up to a vacuum line? Sorry but I'm unclear what a vacuum gange does other then the obvious. There is much more than "the obvious" to using a vacuum gauge. The following links should provide an idea of just how much info about engine condition you can get:http://www.international-auto.com/index.cfm?fa=ad&aid=47 http://www.classictruckshop.com/clubs/earlyburbs/projects/vac/uum.htm http://www.earlycuda.org/tech/vacuum2.htm The basic concept is that a healthy normally-aspirated (non-turbo) 4-cylinder engine running at normal operating temperature will indicate a relatively steady 18+ inches or so at most engine speeds below wide open throttle (WOT). Opening and closing the throttle, depending on how rapidly that's done, should cause certain changes in vacuum, returning to about 18+ inches once the engine speed is again constant. Make sure the engine is fully warmed beforehand. A steady low reading, periodic drop, or significantly vibrating needle all indicate problems. There are two specific tests for restricted exhaust: 1) The first is to bring the engine to 2000-2500 rpm for several seconds, and then rapidly release the throttle; the vacuum should begin at about 18+ inches, jump to near 22 inches when the throttle is released, and then rapidly and smoothly fall back to about 18+ inches again. If the vacuum falls off when the engine's at 2000-2500 rpm, or if there's a hesitation getting to or returning from the higher vacuum when the throttle is released, it probably indicates an exhaust restriction. 2) Rapidly go to WOT. If the vacuum drops to a very low number (near zero) and then slowly rises as revs increase (be careful not to over-rev!), there's a "breathing" problem; it could be an exhaust restriction, or one at the intake. If any vacuum readings don't seem "healthy", get back to us here with details. New cat installed should only be like 200 bucks, but it that's not my problem and it is a air flow issure or whatever is causing my mixture to become rich it will destroy that new cat very quickly. So checking what you guys said would be smartest.Exactly. I took apart the IAC last week and cleaned it all up as previously stated but the line where the PCV runs was very gummed up on the tubing. Is that normal?It's not uncommon for engine blow-by to eventually gum up the PCV valve and tubes, especially after a lot of miles. You said you replaced the valve, so the tubing should be cleaned, or replaced if it's deteriorating. If the PCV clogs up again in a few hundred miles, there's probably excessive blow-by. I really apprieciate all the help guys I'm down to do whatever makes sense. Your alot better then these bastards that keep telling me to put better fuel in the car and that will solve my problems.[...] thanks guys You're welcome. I hope we help you get to the bottom of this before you have to buy another car. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sonicfrog Posted April 7, 2007 Share Posted April 7, 2007 I really apprieciate all the help guys I'm down to do whatever makes sense. Your alot better then these bastards that keep telling me to put better fuel in the car and that will solve my problems. [...] thanks guys. Yeah, well, years of practice! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Suby Skier Posted April 7, 2007 Share Posted April 7, 2007 I did not notice if anyone mentioned to check the timing to see if is off. I had a 1982 Toyota Supra that would not pass emissions and seemed low on power. I finally found out that the timing was off and once fixed it passed emissions and ran great. You could check the two side cams by pulling off the timing covers and turning the crankshaft to see if the marks lineup on each side. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gyuunuuya Posted April 8, 2007 Author Share Posted April 8, 2007 I did not notice if anyone mentioned to check the timing to see if is off. I had a 1982 Toyota Supra that would not pass emissions and seemed low on power. I finally found out that the timing was off and once fixed it passed emissions and ran great. You could check the two side cams by pulling off the timing covers and turning the crankshaft to see if the marks lineup on each side. I might check that later but I have no real loss of power. Just going uphill but I believe that might be a cogged cat. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gyuunuuya Posted April 8, 2007 Author Share Posted April 8, 2007 Ok I just checked the engine witha vacuum gauge hooked up to the intake manifold. I get a steady 17-18 when cold and when engine on warmer side I get a 21. When open and close throttle real quick engine jumps up to 25. All seem normal. I've ruled out a bad radiator because a friend of mine told me that the engine will usually throw out a code for engine temp running hot, which I never got. Last thing I can think to try to a running diagnostic test that I found on this forum. They if nothing found I will replace the cat on monday or something. Any other suggestions guys? And again thanks for all the help Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gyuunuuya Posted April 8, 2007 Author Share Posted April 8, 2007 Oh and I will have to check the TPS today too and let you guys know what I found. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idosubaru Posted April 8, 2007 Share Posted April 8, 2007 Gary, did you rebuild the calipers (or relube the sliding parts) at the time of pad/rotor replacement? relubed the sliding parts, i consider that significant part of doing the job right. they are typically very dry when i pull them. i have rebuilt some XT6 calipers in the past, but not my current DD yet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gyuunuuya Posted April 9, 2007 Author Share Posted April 9, 2007 OK I think I FOUND IT. The TPS is giving a reading of 4.8 volts at closed throttle. When the throttle is open it's giving about a 2.8 reading. Book says closed is .5-1 volt and open is 4.5-5 volts. I tried adjusting the TPS to correct reading but lowest I can get it is 4.2 volts. I think I might need a new TPS. Also given the readings I got from the TPS does the IAC have any relation to those readings??? It seems that the auto shop that told me to put better gas in the car should close down and start selling used tires or something. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idosubaru Posted April 9, 2007 Share Posted April 9, 2007 awesome, hopefullly you nailed your problem. someone on xt6.net disassembled and cleaned his TPS with excellent results. he may have posted it here as well, i don't recall. the XT6 FSM TPS testing values are way, way off. they're not even close, it's impossible to adjust any TPS to the FSM spec's for an XT6. the TPS on the EA82 is completely different, but i would make sure the EA82 FSM values are correct. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cougar Posted April 9, 2007 Share Posted April 9, 2007 It sounds like you have the reverse type TPS where the voltage is close to 5 volts while the throttle is closed and .5 volts at WOT. Your manual specs appear to be for a different model. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gyuunuuya Posted April 9, 2007 Author Share Posted April 9, 2007 It sounds like you have the reverse type TPS where the voltage is close to 5 volts while the throttle is closed and .5 volts at WOT. Your manual specs appear to be for a different model. Can anyone clarify that such a thing exists? I have that Hanes manual for subaru legacy I believe 90-94 Can double check if someone really needs to know. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gyuunuuya Posted April 9, 2007 Author Share Posted April 9, 2007 Also I noticed the ECU is still throwing out codes. I got codes 31 Throttle Sensor or Circuit - Seems to be wrong according to book 21 Coolant Temperature Sensor or Circuit - just replaced it WTF 24 Air Control Valve or Circuit - Unknown at this stage 13 Crank Angle Sensor or Circuit - tested it with DMM works fine Also I retarded the TPS to 4.18 volts and I'm not sure if it was like this b4 but I'm idling at 1100 RPM. Again I don't remember if that's where it was b4. I might have to advande the TPS again and see if the idle goes down. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cougar Posted April 9, 2007 Share Posted April 9, 2007 Can anyone clarify that such a thing exists? I have that Hanes manual for subaru legacy I believe 90-94 Can double check if someone really needs to know. Both type TPS sensors absolutely exsist, and the fact that your sensor is showing near 5 volts at idle means you have one. You should try moving the adjustment back to where it was as close as you can. Try cleaning the wiper of the sensor if you can to see if you can salvage it. The sensor circuits need to be checked with a meter while they are working to see if things are working as they should be. Just replacing a sensor doesn't mean it has to work. The whole circuit needs to be checked. As for the CAS sensor itself, I don't think you can check it out just using a ohmmeter, but you can make sure that the circuit is making connection to it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OB99W Posted April 9, 2007 Share Posted April 9, 2007 Can anyone clarify that such a thing exists?[...] As it says on page 5 of http://endwrench.com/images/pdfs/Fuel.pdf (which I previously provided a link to): ------------------------------------- Some Legacy models were equipped with a TPS with an inverted voltage signal. Voltage was approximately 5 volts at idle and decreased as the throttle was depressed. -------------------------------------- You might want to reread that information, including the part about the idle switch. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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