northgeorgiaroo Posted June 14, 2007 Share Posted June 14, 2007 Hey, guys. When I swapped in my used EJ22 on my 90 Legacy wagon, the guy who was "helping" me shoved the jack right under the AT oil pan to raise the tranny and line up the engine -- no cradle, not even a 2X4! (OK, he really did help, since he provided the engine hoist, but damn, what a doofus!) So now, I have a nice dent about 1" upwards in the bottom of the AT oil pan. Although I have rebuilt an EA82 years ago, (I know, I know, who hasn't:grin: ) and done the timing/h2o pump/etc. on my engine before putting it into the Legacy, I have NEVER so much as opened up an automatic tranny on any car. Before I joined this board, I really just kindof figured automatic transmissions worked by some sort of magic:grin: . So the question is how easy is this to fix? Can I just drop the pan and bend it back, or are there a lot of baffles on the inside of the pan that will make this difficult? Tranny has had some torque bind issues, but there is no way I am going to try a rebuild or duty-C replacement on my own (yep, I've done a thread search). Is there anything simple I should do while I have the pan off to keep the 4EAT going as long as possible before a rebuild? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jamal Posted June 14, 2007 Share Posted June 14, 2007 no baffles, you can just pull the pan off and replace it or bend it back. Some 4eats used a gasket and some just use sealant. I'd recommend just getting some sealant. Expect to get atf in your hair, though. I took pictures and stuff when I replaced the gasket, they're here: http://bbs.legacycentral.org/viewtopic.php?t=28316 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
northgeorgiaroo Posted June 14, 2007 Author Share Posted June 14, 2007 no baffles, you can just pull the pan off and replace it or bend it back. Some 4eats used a gasket and some just use sealant. I'd recommend just getting some sealant. Expect to get atf in your hair, though. I took pictures and stuff when I replaced the gasket, they're here: http://bbs.legacycentral.org/viewtopic.php?t=28316 Thanks for the FAST reply, Jamal:burnout: ATF in the hair is no problem. I got some in my mouth replacing the lines to the radiator. THAT SUCKED! I spent about 20 min. spitting and gagging. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idosubaru Posted June 14, 2007 Share Posted June 14, 2007 want to send a picture of the pan? if it's not close to the sump it won't matter. it'll just displace a little fluid. but if it's by the sump, then you need to do something right away. the pan can be really annoying to replace, they often leak after reinstall. the holes get rusty and corroded and the holes may be concave up...cutting into the new gasket as you tighten it. also make sure you clean the mating surface of the trans and pan very, very good. and use a Subaru gasket, some of the aftermarket gaskets are thin and whimpy. some people like to throw RTV or sealant of some kind on both sides of the gasket to avoid the leaking issues mentioned above. of course some newer gen vehicles don't have a gasket, i think they just use sealant, not sure when that changed though. and don't bother replacing the filter while you're in there, just fix the pan and go. the "filter" isn't really a filter at all, it's just a screen. they are never culprits to worry about. the oring at the top of the filter might be worth replacing though if you feel so inclined while you're in there. but you wouldn't have replaced it anyway had the pan not dented. you could also drill a hole in the middle of the dent, drain rinse the ATF out, pull the dent out and then weld it shut. that's what i would do, much quicker than pulling the pan. but most probalby don't feel comfortable doing that. along those lines, i'd check out some body dent pulling methods maybe..i'm not well versed in body work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skip Posted June 14, 2007 Share Posted June 14, 2007 "you could also drill a hole in the middle of the dent, drain rinse the ATF out, pull the dent out and then weld it shut. that's what i would do" This method is questionable at best. I can tell you have not done much overhead welding. You said rinse - with what? How long do you let it drain? Days? You will never get all the ATF out so some will settle into the pocket you form pulling it out. This will contaminate the weld and do you know the flash point of ATF?? Wanna bet if it's higher or lower than the temp of molten steel? "much quicker than pulling the pan." As I said questionable at best. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
northgeorgiaroo Posted June 14, 2007 Author Share Posted June 14, 2007 Thanks, Gary, and don't worry, Skip. It would take a lot of fast talking to get me to put a hole in a perfectly good pan just to get out a dent. I have zero welding experience anyway, so that wouldn't be an option anyway. I'll just pull the pan, undent it, and put it back with a new gasket. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
porcupine73 Posted June 14, 2007 Share Posted June 14, 2007 Yah you should be able to pound out the dent after pulling the pan. Then I spray the outside of my pans with Ace Hardware flat black barbeque paint - makes it look like new. You could even use metal filler on the outside to smooth over the dent if you don't like how it looks. The dented pan may be a blessing in disguise. For mild torque bind an ATF change would be a great thing to try first, esp. on an older unit. When you pull the pan, change out the screen filter too (they usually don't have anything in them anyway). You have to remove this atf pipe over the filter to do it. When you do that, serveral more quarts ATF will come out leaving maybe 1-2 quarts in the system. Just draining the pan leaves 4-5 quarts in the system. Also, do you have the external Subaru add-on filter on this AT? If not it might be a good thing to add. I've used a Purolator kit with gasket and filter on the '96 and a Napa kit and gasket on the '94; it is very easy to do, no problems with leaks (yet!) but my pans were in good shape. Another thing some people use for torque bind is limited slip differential additive. I wouldn't use that unless the fresh ATF doesn't correct the problem in some miles. Subaru recommended it at some point for binding. But it is controversial. Sometimes multiple drain and fills of ATF are needed to get rid of the bind. I've found it can help to get the ATF nice and hot, like not overheat the trans, but after I did some hill climbs in the '96 with fresh atf, got the atf to about 220 deg. F a few times the bind was gone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cookie Posted June 14, 2007 Share Posted June 14, 2007 When ever you remove a pan type like the subaru oil pans I was told to straighten them carefully before installation. do the edges and take out any warpage around bolt holes. time consuming but it really helps. If you are unlikly to remove it again try Permatex "The Right Stuff." I just did a rear end housing with that stuff and it really seals. No gasket needed and is OEM for several cars. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2.5GL Posted June 15, 2007 Share Posted June 15, 2007 While the pan is out, I would cut out the lower most section of the sump. Say a couple of 1/4" high notches on the straight edges, leaving the corners to stop the pan from closing off the sump, should the pan ever get dented again. Spicifically for those times when you might not know that it happened... Lewis Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
northgeorgiaroo Posted June 16, 2007 Author Share Posted June 16, 2007 Wow! I LOVE USMB!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I have never been on a board with so many people ready to help, even on a basic question like this. Thank you to everyone. Good lord willing, the old girl will be up on jack stands tomorrow, getting her transmission pan un-dented. While we are talking about pans, the oil pan that came with my new used engine is rusty as heck. I know I should have just swapped on the one from my engine while it was out, but I just wanted to get the ol' girl on the road in a hurry. If it doesn't leak (no signs yet), y'all think that rusty pan will be OK for a while? Or should I try to do that too? If I do, could I just use the same permatex on the engine oil pan? (I am in Dalton, GA, and NOOOOO ONE around here has Roo parts. The #$%^& Subaru dealer in Chattanooga just up the road doesn't even stock first generation Legacy parts -- when I needed stuff for the timing belt job, they told me they could order it and get it the following week - I ordered from Courtesy Subaru in South Dakota where they are MUCH nicer and more knowledgeable. Same wait, and I didn't have to drive to the dealership). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gloyale Posted June 16, 2007 Share Posted June 16, 2007 (I am in Dalton, GA, and NOOOOO ONE around here has Roo parts. The #$%^& Subaru dealer in Chattanooga just up the road doesn't even stock first generation Legacy parts -- when I needed stuff for the timing belt job, they told me they could order it and get it the following week - I ordered from Courtesy Subaru in South Dakota where they are MUCH nicer and more knowledgeable. Same wait, and I didn't have to drive to the dealership). Funny, I have a similar problem in Wisconsin. First gen Legacy and several old 80's GL's. I order my parts form John and Phils in Corvallis, Oregon. Used to know the staff(Gina) real well but she left:( Gina are you here somewhere? Bob and Brian are good guys too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
86BRATMAN Posted June 16, 2007 Share Posted June 16, 2007 I've seen the lsd additive put to use before. About 4-5 years ago my mom's 98 started the early stages of TB. Our mechanic had dad put it in there and go to an open parking lot and drive in figure 8's for a while. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Olnick Posted June 16, 2007 Share Posted June 16, 2007 If it doesn't leak (no signs yet), y'all think that rusty pan will be OK for a while? Well . . . it won't rust on the inside!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
porcupine73 Posted June 16, 2007 Share Posted June 16, 2007 All my sub's transmission and engine oil pans were rusty. Just wire brush 'em, spray 'em with solvent, and spray with flat black barbeque paint. Takes like 5 minutes and it will keep it from rusting further, at least for a while. When wire brushing, if it is worn thin, you will probably feel it, or if it pokes a hole in then you know it might be time for replacement. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
northgeorgiaroo Posted July 1, 2007 Author Share Posted July 1, 2007 Update: Finally had time to take off the pan and all... Fluid smelled funny... got about 6 qts total out. The stuff that came out of the drain hole didn't seem to have any grit in it, but I noticed there were flakes in the stuff that came out when I got the pan off. RTV is curing overnight, and will refill tomorrow. How serious is this torque bind likely to get? Right now it just happens at low speeds in tight turns (parking). Advice? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2.5GL Posted July 2, 2007 Share Posted July 2, 2007 It will, like all things, get worse over time. First, is your AT TEMP light flashing at start-up? If so, check codes. I would suspect DTC (Diagnostic Trouble Code) #23 Which is duty solenoid "C". This solenoid is the one that sends power to the rear wheels. If faulty, it will typically defualt to to a locked position applying power to the rear at all times. If not, I would pull the tail section of the trans (transfer case) and inspect the top gear hub on the transmission (it can be gently pried out with a "lady finger" or similar prying tool) for wear into the leading edge of the teeth caused by the clutch packs (located in the "drum" that is connected to the output shaft and was either removed with t-case, or was stuck on the hub needing the inspection.) IF there is wear, a small cut-off wheel on a die grinder will smooth them out, thus allowing the clutches to release pressure in the low-speed turns instead of sticking and causing the bind. And I would probably replace the solenoid as well while you are there. If by some chance you have a TCU (Transmission Control Unit) that matches part number by a few digits (ex. 21611aa650 or 651, 652, 653, and so on up to 659, numbers within that 10 digit range are most often "superceding" numbers in a given model year and will work). you could swap it fairly quickly to eliminate the idea of a "control" issue. Other TCUs in similar models may work as well I have seen, in some cases where the trans took on water at some point. This will cause clutch packs to swell and then present a problem like yours. HOWEVER, the rest of the clutches in the tranny will follow causing more drastic shifting and drivability problems. Lewis Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
northgeorgiaroo Posted July 3, 2007 Author Share Posted July 3, 2007 Update to the UPDATE! Drove around the neighborhood about 2 mi. round trip following pan replacement and refill, and was UNABLE TO CREATE TORQUE BIND!!! And the pan doesn't leak!!! (Dan knocks on the wooden desktop) It is certainly something I will keep an eye on (in the form of checking tranny fluid, tire pressures, etc.), but for now I am moving on the fun part of having a Legacy -- Driving It! (Oh yeah, and getting tranny flushed all the way out, replacing the struts within the next few months, pounding out the crunched fender eventually and all the other "little things".) (BTW 2.5 -- The AT Temp light is not flashing when I start her, although the CEL is on -- I will pull that one, but I suspect it is an O2 sensor) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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