head gasket...part deux

[stevensocial]

Hi everybody, I appreciate all of your help and advice.

 

I posted this last Tuesday:

 

 

I have a 1999 Subaru Outback wagon, with about 115,000 miles on it. She's a great runner, with little complaints over the life of the car. Last summer I had the Timing Belt and Water Pump replaced just as general maintenance, to avoid larger problems. (I once had a blown timing belt on the side of the highway in a snowstorm on my older Loyale wagon, once is enough). Driving it to the ski resort today I noticed my temp gauge was slightly above halfway. It normally sits at halfway, even with the steep mountain driving. I only had about two steep miles to go to the parking lot, where I would have cell phone service again. So turned on the heater full-blast and crawled slowly to the parking lot. The temp gauge continued to slowly rise, until I was finally able to pull over at the parking lot, where my car promptly pissed out a good half cup of bright green coolant. I let it cool down, got underneath to find the large black rubber radiator hose on the driver's side was collapsed like a deflated balloon. It looked like there was a vacuum somewhere and the air was being sucked out of the hose. The coolant reservoir was very full at this point and was not draining into the radiator. I let the car cool, and slowly poured water straight into the radiator. At this point the temp gauge was stone cold. I called a mechanic back in town, who told be to drive it very carefully to his shop. I drove (mostly coasted in neutral) back down the road to town, only giving it gas to keep up speed. I had the heater full blast again. With all this the temp gauge stayed at halfway, and the heater never heated up. Got it to the mechanic, who specializes in Subarus (and still I'm wanting to double-check, I know I'm just really optimistic). The mechanic got the car on the lift, found the radiator hose un-deflated, back to it's normal shape, and no coolant in the back-up coolant reservoir. The main reservoir was still full. He informed me that it was most likely a blown head gasket, which would cost roughly $1800 for starters. He told me that sure, it was drivable but would likely continue to overheat the whole way home, and eventually something far worse (and more costly) could occur. Luckily I had my trusty AAA Plus membership and was able to have it towed the 80 miles back home to my driveway, where it now sits, brokenhearted.[/i]

 

Yesterday, 6 days after it broke down, I needed to move the car. I remembered that it had driven after I'd gotten it off the tow truck just fine. I started it, it had a noticable rattle from the engine. I turned it off, checked the coolant. The main reservoir.....empty, bone dry. Checked the oil....low low low, barely to the first dot on the dipstick. I filled the coolant reservoir with coolant, fresh water into the radiator, and 2 quarts of oil into oil tank. Started her up after that...ran just fine. Drove around my neighborhood...eyes glued to the temp gauge, which was completely normal. Even took it onto the highway for a couple miles...ran like a dream. It sounds completely normal now.

 

Got it home, let it cool down again. Noticed no leaking of coolant or oil. No noticable change in the coolant or oil levels.

 

So what is that?!? I thought if it was indeed the head gasket, it would overheat again and again as long as I drove it. Could the overheating last week be related to the oil running low? It's holding coolant now, so does that mean it's not a cracked radiator hose or radiator. I'm mystified.

 

I'm still taking it into my local shop on Monday morning. They're offered to do a couple tests (exhaust gases in the coolant, etc..) for free to determine if it is the head gasket. And will post what they tell me tomorrow night.[/i]

 

 

So I've taken it to two, reputable shops in my neighborhood in Denver. Pro Auto Care told me that there were combustion gases in the coolant, and I needed a new head gasket for about $2000. I took it to another shop in my neighborhood for a second opinion. South Denver Automotive rand three tests: for combustion gases in the coolant, a leakdown test, and a pressure check, all for about $90 bucks. All three tests came back not indicative of the head gasket being the problem. Frankly they can't figure out whats wrong with it. The mechanic even told me he took it out and drove it around, to see if the problem would present itself once the engine warmed up. Nothing. The mechanic admitted to me that they had to resort to using something called Fix it or something like that which he explained to me is an online resource for mehanics who are stumped (kind of like Ultimate Subaru), and the recommendations were the head gasket. He freely admitted to me that their tests were negative, but still advised to do the head gasket repair anyway. The estimate was for $1681, OEM Head Gasket set and labor alltogether.

 

Im just confused. I almost want to get a third opinion.

 

Steven

[Gloyale]

Sounds like a headgasket. It is an expensive job if you have a shop do it. Not that bad if you do 'em your self.

 

But think about it. $2000 spread over a year is about $175 a month. Payments on anything comparable would likely be close to that. And after a fresh reseal you should expect much more than just another year from you're Subaru.

[idosubaru]

this engine can stump mechanics...i've helped said stumped mechanics before. they "can" pass the hydrocarbon, leak down and compression tests and not overheat for a long time - but still be bad. i've seen it and you can find other cases of it on the boards.

 

i'm not saying your head gaskets are bad, i haven't seen your car. i don't know why but phase I EJ25's with bad headgaskets can pass those tests. few, if any, motors will pass those test with bad headgaskets - that's why he's stumped.

[nipper]

A few things bother me here right off. The rattle, and low low oil. Do you have any idea how long it was that low. That leaves maybe 2 qts in the pan when the car is off, and that is not enough to safley lubricate the engine.

 

Head gaskets are allusive when they first start to go bad, and can drive people nuts. Basically with a HG you rule everything else out first, then assume its a HG by default.

 

The low oil, i dont want to see you putting 1500 into a HG to spin a bearing in a month.

 

i am a huge supporter of fixing HG's on these cars, once its done, its done, but the low oil, they really do no like that.

 

Look at CCR website, maybe cough up some extra bucks for an engine.

 

Have your mechanic also put a mechanical oil pressure gauge on the car and that will help us check the bottom end. A vacum gaube can also tell us if the HG is bad.

 

nipper

[screwbaru2]

Ditto what grossgary and nipper said. Short of removal and disassambly there is not way sure way to say its HG's. Even though having had experience with this, most of us are fairly certain it is. It is very fustrating.

As I said eariler that motor should be suspect and there is no cheap way out.

You could have a double whamy of a bad HG and a cracked block or head. Both could be elusive with the engine assembled in the car. There's a pic on this site of a 2.5 with a chunk of metal missing between 2 cylinders. This condition was hidden until the motor was dissassembled. I am very bias towards replacing these 2.5 with a 2.2 of the same era. Once I get burned I'm very shy about repeating a mistake. The best situation would be if you could find someone with experience with this issue to help you pull the motor and remove the heads and try to determine if the motor is worth trying to save. Or you could use this "event" to learn and do it yourself.

I wish I could give you better news but that is the reality. On the up side this is the only real serious issue with these car. Once this is behind you you'll be enjoying many trouble free miles. They're great cars with one big fault.

[stevensocial]

A few things bother me here right off. The rattle, and low low oil. Do you have any idea how long it was that low. That leaves maybe 2 qts in the pan when the car is off, and that is not enough to safley lubricate the engine.

 

Head gaskets are allusive when they first start to go bad, and can drive people nuts. Basically with a HG you rule everything else out first, then assume its a HG by default.

 

The low oil, i dont want to see you putting 1500 into a HG to spin a bearing in a month.

 

i am a huge supporter of fixing HG's on these cars, once its done, its done, but the low oil, they really do no like that.

 

Look at CCR website, maybe cough up some extra bucks for an engine.

 

Have your mechanic also put a mechanical oil pressure gauge on the car and that will help us check the bottom end. A vacum gaube can also tell us if the HG is bad.

 

nipper

 

I had checked the oil one week before this incident, and it was normal. And like I said, at the time of the rattle, the oil only came up to the bottom dot on the dipstick, with a cold engine. I'll ask the mechanic to do those tests you're recommending.

[Subaru_dude]

"Heater never heated up." Sounds like a clogged radiator core to me. That will cause overheating too. Could also be why the rad hose was collapsed.

[screwbaru2]

"Heater never heated up." Sounds like a clogged radiator core to me. That will cause overheating too. Could also be why the rad hose was collapsed.

Sounds like low coolant to me. Since that what he said he had when he checked the coolant.

[Subaru_dude]

Sounds like low coolant to me. Since that what he said he had when he checked the coolant.

 

Silly me I think you're right.

 

If it's headgaskets, drop that motor and get a 2.2. I haven't owned one yet, but I've heard too much good about them.

[screwbaru2]

The dude and me agree. The 2.2 is as close as ya going get to a bullet proof motor. I've had 5 or 6 of em and expect for one they were still running when I gave the car to my boneyard buddy. I wish I had a couple of em right now.

The reason I say to use caution is that the motor has been overheated probably to the point where the oil got so thin that it leaked past the rings and/or seals which could be why the oil was low. If you had seen bubbles in the coolant and the motor never overheated I say go for replacing the headgaskets. Like I said its a matter of how much you like the car and how much $$ you have and are willing to spend. I'll have about a $10,000. 97 Outback. I don't expect to see that money but I do expect I'll have a car for a long time. I choose to keep digging a little more because I like the car and MT are very hard to find around here anyway.

[hohieu]

I had checked the oil one week before this incident, and it was normal. And like I said, at the time of the rattle, the oil only came up to the bottom dot on the dipstick, with a cold engine. I'll ask the mechanic to do those tests you're recommending.

 

One quart of oil should bring the oil level from the lower to the upper mark. Where is the oil now when you check it?

[Quidam]

Hi everybody

 

So I've taken it to two, reputable shops in my neighborhood in Denver. Pro Auto Care told me that there were combustion gases in the coolant. I took it to another shop in my neighborhood for a second opinion. South Denver Automotive rand three tests: for combustion gases in the coolant, a leakdown test, and a pressure check, all for about $90 bucks.

 

Im just confused. I almost want to get a third opinion.

 

Steven

 

Hi Steven,

 

I don't have any experience with 2.5 Subaru. The guys here know these cars, so here are just some thoughts.

 

Two tests for combustion gas in the coolant. One positive, one negative. Someone is wrong. Pin that down with a third check.

 

What were the numbers from the compression test and leak down?

 

Edit: Gary, my leak-down tester has a 200 p.s.i. gage. If the car I'm doing is supposed to show say, 170 psi on a compression test...that's what I test it at when I leak it down. A lot of leak-down rigs will only do 100 psi. Well, there's a story right there. A leak down using 100 psi can not give you the whole story. Of course, you have to have the air compressor to acheve those higher numbers, or bottled nitrogen.

 

Colapsed rad hoses make me think stuck thermostat. But I'm not sure in your case.

 

"IF" the compression is good, leak down good, no combustion gases in the coolant. I'd be looking somewhere else. Radiator, thermostat?

 

Has the drive pulley on the crank been slipping? Recent timing belt and water pump and all. I don't even know if it's possible on the 2.5.

 

It is on the EA-82, and if it has red locktite on the bolt, it can and will stay in the crank, and slip. Been there done that with a previous owners repair.

 

But I don't know much about these 2.5 engines.

 

The leakdown needs to done with the engine hot. Thermal expansion and contraction and all.

 

I'd get a third then sort it out.

 

Doug

[scottsheppard@videotron.ca]

I am throwing this out because I had the exact problem with my 2.2 Legacy...was the thermostat thjat seized closed..due to build up of sludge...I took it out and played with it and noted when I boiled it in water it moved again and scraped some gunk off exposing the fresh brass...put it back in and is now A-1

 

Just a thought that may save some $$$$

 

s

 

Hi everybody, I appreciate all of your help and advice.

 

I posted this last Tuesday:

 

 

I have a 1999 Subaru Outback wagon, with about 115,000 miles on it. She's a great runner, with little complaints over the life of the car. Last summer I had the Timing Belt and Water Pump replaced just as general maintenance, to avoid larger problems. (I once had a blown timing belt on the side of the highway in a snowstorm on my older Loyale wagon, once is enough). Driving it to the ski resort today I noticed my temp gauge was slightly above halfway. It normally sits at halfway, even with the steep mountain driving. I only had about two steep miles to go to the parking lot, where I would have cell phone service again. So turned on the heater full-blast and crawled slowly to the parking lot. The temp gauge continued to slowly rise, until I was finally able to pull over at the parking lot, where my car promptly pissed out a good half cup of bright green coolant. I let it cool down, got underneath to find the large black rubber radiator hose on the driver's side was collapsed like a deflated balloon. It looked like there was a vacuum somewhere and the air was being sucked out of the hose. The coolant reservoir was very full at this point and was not draining into the radiator. I let the car cool, and slowly poured water straight into the radiator. At this point the temp gauge was stone cold. I called a mechanic back in town, who told be to drive it very carefully to his shop. I drove (mostly coasted in neutral) back down the road to town, only giving it gas to keep up speed. I had the heater full blast again. With all this the temp gauge stayed at halfway, and the heater never heated up. Got it to the mechanic, who specializes in Subarus (and still I'm wanting to double-check, I know I'm just really optimistic). The mechanic got the car on the lift, found the radiator hose un-deflated, back to it's normal shape, and no coolant in the back-up coolant reservoir. The main reservoir was still full. He informed me that it was most likely a blown head gasket, which would cost roughly $1800 for starters. He told me that sure, it was drivable but would likely continue to overheat the whole way home, and eventually something far worse (and more costly) could occur. Luckily I had my trusty AAA Plus membership and was able to have it towed the 80 miles back home to my driveway, where it now sits, brokenhearted.[/i]

 

Yesterday, 6 days after it broke down, I needed to move the car. I remembered that it had driven after I'd gotten it off the tow truck just fine. I started it, it had a noticable rattle from the engine. I turned it off, checked the coolant. The main reservoir.....empty, bone dry. Checked the oil....low low low, barely to the first dot on the dipstick. I filled the coolant reservoir with coolant, fresh water into the radiator, and 2 quarts of oil into oil tank. Started her up after that...ran just fine. Drove around my neighborhood...eyes glued to the temp gauge, which was completely normal. Even took it onto the highway for a couple miles...ran like a dream. It sounds completely normal now.

 

Got it home, let it cool down again. Noticed no leaking of coolant or oil. No noticable change in the coolant or oil levels.

 

So what is that?!? I thought if it was indeed the head gasket, it would overheat again and again as long as I drove it. Could the overheating last week be related to the oil running low? It's holding coolant now, so does that mean it's not a cracked radiator hose or radiator. I'm mystified.

 

I'm still taking it into my local shop on Monday morning. They're offered to do a couple tests (exhaust gases in the coolant, etc..) for free to determine if it is the head gasket. And will post what they tell me tomorrow night.[/i]

 

 

So I've taken it to two, reputable shops in my neighborhood in Denver. Pro Auto Care told me that there were combustion gases in the coolant, and I needed a new head gasket for about $2000. I took it to another shop in my neighborhood for a second opinion. South Denver Automotive rand three tests: for combustion gases in the coolant, a leakdown test, and a pressure check, all for about $90 bucks. All three tests came back not indicative of the head gasket being the problem. Frankly they can't figure out whats wrong with it. The mechanic even told me he took it out and drove it around, to see if the problem would present itself once the engine warmed up. Nothing. The mechanic admitted to me that they had to resort to using something called Fix it or something like that which he explained to me is an online resource for mehanics who are stumped (kind of like Ultimate Subaru), and the recommendations were the head gasket. He freely admitted to me that their tests were negative, but still advised to do the head gasket repair anyway. The estimate was for $1681, OEM Head Gasket set and labor alltogether.

 

Im just confused. I almost want to get a third opinion.

 

Steven

[Gloyale]

I am throwing this out because I had the exact problem with my 2.2 Legacy...was the thermostat thjat seized closed..due to build up of sludge...I took it out and played with it and noted when I boiled it in water it moved again and scraped some gunk off exposing the fresh brass...put it back in and is now A-1

 

Just a thought that may save some $$$$

 

s

 

Yeah the problem there is that it's not supposed to be a brass seal.

 

An OEM Subaru thermostat for the 2.2 would have a rubber seal on the valve.

 

Did you scrape off the rubber seal? Or was this a non OEM thermostat?

 

Don't be surprised if that 2.2 isn't actually starting to loose its HGs. Contrary to all the hype here, the 2.2 IS NOT bullet proof, and does(or at least can) blow headgaskets once the miles get high.

[nipper]

Yeah the problem there is that it's not supposed to be a brass seal.

 

An OEM Subaru thermostat for the 2.2 would have a rubber seal on the valve.

 

Did you scrape off the rubber seal? Or was this a non OEM thermostat?

 

Don't be surprised if that 2.2 isn't actually starting to loose its HGs. Contrary to all the hype here, the 2.2 IS NOT bullet proof, and does(or at least can) blow headgaskets once the miles get high.

 

Like i have said before, and i get yelled at for...

 

ANY aluminum engine can blow a HG as it ages period. Even cast Iron engines blew HG's as they got older. It's unreasonable to expect what is the highest stressed part of an engine to last forever. If it does, thats great, if it doesnt, it happens. Remeber we tend to keep subarus a lot longer then people keep other cars, and usually by the time other cars blow HG's they arent worth fixing (since everything has fallen off them by then).

 

A car is more then just the engine.

 

nipper

[Gloyale]

Like i have said before, and i get yelled at for...

 

ANY aluminum engine can blow a HG as it ages period. Even cast Iron engines blew HG's as they got older. It's unreasonable to expect what is the highest stressed part of an engine to last forever. If it does, thats great, if it doesnt, it happens. Remeber we tend to keep subarus a lot longer then people keep other cars, and usually by the time other cars blow HG's they arent worth fixing (since everything has fallen off them by then).

 

A car is more then just the engine.

 

nipper

 

I agree. That was the jist my statement.

 

Headgaskets are not fail proof in any car.

[idosubaru]

Like i have said before, and i get yelled at for...

 

ANY aluminum engine can blow a HG as it ages period.

there's no one on this board that would disagree with that. less accurate, are comments like "any car over 140k has the same chance of loosing a head gasket". hey...i took the bait!! good thing i'm not a fish!

[scottsheppard@videotron.ca]

I was not refering to the seal on the thermostat. The brass metal I was referring to was the bi-metalic part that actually causes a thermostat to work in the first instance. (you know, dis-similar metals etc). I am not familiar with brass seals for thermostats

 

s

[Rooster2]

"Heater never heated up." Sounds like a clogged radiator core to me. That will cause overheating too. Could also be why the rad hose was collapsed.

 

 

"Heater never heated up" is another sign of a bad HG. With a bad HG, so much exhaust gas is being pumped into the cooling system that the heater core isn't able to extract heat from from the circulating exhaust gas, when it is designed to extract heat from liquid coolant.

[Gloyale]

I was not refering to the seal on the thermostat. The brass metal I was referring to was the bi-metalic part that actually causes a thermostat to work in the first instance. (you know, dis-similar metals etc). I am not familiar with brass seals for thermostats

 

s

 

I was not taliking about the rubber gasket that goes around the outer edge. That is just the gasket.

 

I mean the valve itself. The plate that is moved by expansion of the wax pellet(not bi-metal)

 

On cheap themostats, the plate just seats against the metal hole. Metal on metal seal.

 

Subaru Thermostats have a rubber seal on that plate.