bicycle_ben Posted March 13, 2009 Share Posted March 13, 2009 i have a 1981 wagon and it pulls a little to the left and if you go into a tight turn the wheel wont straighten back out unless you turn it really hard. when i turn into the corner the wheel feels just like id expect a little non power steering car to feel its just that once you are in the turn the wheel feels stuck and the car wants to keep turning. ive noticed that when im spinning around in the snow it doesnt feel stuck like that so it must have something to do with the alignment of the tires which doesnt matter when they are sliding freely on snow. can i mess with this my self? - im poor and turning my own wrenches is cheaper than paying a shop to do it plus i get the extra benefit of learning stuff Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ivantruckman Posted March 13, 2009 Share Posted March 13, 2009 (edited) if your alighnment is that bad, you can get it close, or closer by eye, what year and type...ie.. 4x4/ power steering /etc. i can measure the length of the tierods for you, you should be close enough , ..... is anything bent under there, or maby a bad balljoint , or upper strut bearing ? also caster and camber can be done with a level. not precisely but at least close Edited March 13, 2009 by ivantruckman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ferox Posted March 13, 2009 Share Posted March 13, 2009 I recently took my '81 into Les Schwab for alignment, and they said they needed to replace the inner tie rods before they could do the alignment. They wanted to charge me $400 parts and labor, but I did it myself for $90. When I pulled my steering rack, I discovered the existing tie rods were in good shape, but my steering rack had a lot of backlash. I couldn't feel it from the steering wheel. I removed the adjuster screw and pushed some synth grease in there, then adjusted the back lash. It's super easy, and you don't have to remove the rack from the car. It made a huge difference. But I digress I took my car back to Les Schwab and had them do the alignment $55, and my car is so nice to drive now. It handles so much better. So the point of my story is...I would make sure the backlash is adjusted properly and take it to a professional for alignment. Schwab charges $55 and you can make $15/mo. payments. I think it's worth it, but don't let them sell you parts and labor. They don't know these cars, and I think a lot of steering components and wheel bearings get changed due to too much backlash in the steering rack. And what is worse is when they say "Oh your car is just old and worn out and there's not much you can do about it." 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ivantruckman Posted March 13, 2009 Share Posted March 13, 2009 (edited) the alighnment isnt that expensive , its the extra parts they try to sell you ,and the labor to have it done, the only way it would get out of alighnment is if somone changed a front end part out, and didnt take the time to get it close ..or a major bump to the suspention that bent somthing. or high wear, ferfox is right on. ..fix all the problems first .than get it alighned. or have them do the troubleshooting,( somtimes for free) and fix all the stuff yourself, and take it back for them to do the alighnment. Edited March 13, 2009 by ivantruckman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idosubaru Posted March 13, 2009 Share Posted March 13, 2009 i've seen tips on doing this yourself given by folks that do alignments either here, subaruxt.com, or online before. i'm sure the info is out there, probably try searcihng for it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
naru Posted March 14, 2009 Share Posted March 14, 2009 Front toe-in is the only adjustment on an 81.Ride height too if 4wd. Easy to do at home w/a measuring tape and partner. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaveT Posted March 14, 2009 Share Posted March 14, 2009 If the toe in is way off, it will eat tires. As in, the tread gets seperated from the steel belts. Then they "wobble" & shake depending on speed. The car didn't pull one way or the other. After I adjusted the toe in, it did steer better, and no more extreme tire wear. I used 2 moderately heavy straight bars. Placed on blocks, 3-4" off the floor, against the tires. Measure across just in front & just behind the tires. The length should be close to equal. The exact range is in the FSM. Usually pulling hard to one side is something bent or a brake draging. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gloyale Posted March 14, 2009 Share Posted March 14, 2009 Front toe-in is the only adjustment on an 81.Ride height too if 4wd. Easy to do at home w/a measuring tape and partner. rear toe can also be adjusted via the 3 bolts that hold the inner arm to the trailingh arm. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
naru Posted March 14, 2009 Share Posted March 14, 2009 rear toe can also be adjusted via the 3 bolts that hold the inner arm to the trailingh arm. Not as part of any factory suggested procedure.No slots in either piece. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gloyale Posted March 14, 2009 Share Posted March 14, 2009 Not as part of any factory suggested procedure.No slots in either piece. I disagree. I am pretty sure there is an adjustment. The bolt holes are larger than the bolts so there is SOME adjustment for sure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caboobaroo Posted March 15, 2009 Share Posted March 15, 2009 Not as part of any factory suggested procedure.No slots in either piece. I disagree. I am pretty sure there is an adjustment. The bolt holes are larger than the bolts so there is SOME adjustment for sure. Ok, I'm an ASE alignment tech (even though it just says I took a test and passed) but I'm one of the few that actually know what I'm doing. If you have any doubt, go to the NWIC section of NASIOC and search "caboobaroo alignments" and you should find a few threads about me. Anyways, Gloyale is right, the 3 bolts ARE an adjustment, even specified in the FSMs I have which I have ones covering numerous years. Its not much, only about .40 degrees of movement but enough to get it into spec if its a hair out. No camber or caster adjustments in the front, again, very minimal camber adjustments in the rear. You can get a slight camber change by rotating the strut tophat sometimes, I've done it on a few different makes of cars. Unless you have a EJ car or a EA car with a 5-lug conversion like I did (EJ parts combined with the XT6 parts), then this does not regard to you but if you do have any questions, feel free to ask. ALL EA cars have a positive camber, negative toe setting in the front which is the main reason why they have such bad positive camber when lifted. If the front toe is toed out, then you'll start getting inside shoulder wear, not so much since the positive camber counteracts it BUT, if its toed in, then you'll get nasty shoulder wear on the outside of the tires. In regards to drifting, pulling, etc. There are a few things that can cause this, one being radial pull. So my suggestions to you is cross rotate the front tires and see if it drifts back the other way. If not, then you've now narrowed the search you can do at home before you go spend money. So, if that doesn't fix the issue, and you've made sure your front steering components are tight, then you might have another issue with a control arm being bent or strut rod bushings being shot. To chekc at home for a bent control arm, tape measure is all you really need. Measure the gap from the back of the tires to the fender, parallel to the ground, If its the same side to side, then move on, if not, ta dum! If the strut rod bushings are shot, you'll be able to shift the wheel back and forth in the wheel well with a prybar put between the body and the control arm in such a way that if you pull on the prybar, it'll shift the wheel forward, or replace them anyways since they're real cheap and easy to replace! Once you've done that, now go get your alignment checked. Like I said before, there's only a couple things that will cause a vehicle to drift, and one to make it pull. Drifting issues are: Radial pull Cross caster being ~ .8-1.0 degree Cross camber being ~.8-1.0 degree A pull typically is cause by a low caster value on that side. Remember! A vehicle that has a drift or a pull will ALWAYS go to the direction with the higher camber and/or low caster value! I usually see cars that have been curbed hard due to sliding out of control to have a high camber, low caster scenario on whatever side was hit. Now that I just dumped mroe info into your guy's heads then I should have, now have hopefully more knowledge about alignments! I've been doing them for quite awhile so I know quite a bit about them. Again, any questions, I guess just post up here! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
naru Posted March 15, 2009 Share Posted March 15, 2009 Ok, I'm an ASE alignment tech (even though it just says I took a test and passed) but I'm one of the few that actually know what I'm doing. If you have any doubt, go to the NWIC section of NASIOC and search "caboobaroo alignments" and you should find a few threads about me. Anyways, Gloyale is right, the 3 bolts ARE an adjustment, even specified in the FSMs I have which I have ones covering numerous years. ! Dunno what books you are looking at,but,it is not a procedure reccomended in any EA-81 FSM I`ve seen. EA-82 maybe? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
naru Posted March 15, 2009 Share Posted March 15, 2009 Once you've done that, now go get your alignment checked. Like I said before, there's only a couple things that will cause a vehicle to drift, and one to make it pull. Drifting issues are: Radial pull Cross caster being ~ .8-1.0 degree Cross camber being ~.8-1.0 degree Only a couple? I think you forgot a few Mr. ASE. What about.... Unequal Steering axis inclination Unequal scrub radius Bad rear toe resulting in a thrust angle between front and rear "axles" Dragging brake Defective power steering rack? No camber or caster adjustments in the front No individual wheel caster adjustment,but adjusting front/rear ride heights unequally on a 4wd will alter caster collectively. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bicycle_ben Posted March 15, 2009 Author Share Posted March 15, 2009 so i did a little rough 4 wheeling over my weekend and it seems to have "fixed" whatever the problem was... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gloyale Posted March 15, 2009 Share Posted March 15, 2009 Dunno what books you are looking at,but,it is not a procedure reccomended in any EA-81 FSM I`ve seen. EA-82 maybe? I've got the 83 Turbo supplement. It lists an adjustment spec for the rear alignment. Doesn't cover how to accomplish it, but the adjustment is listed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
naru Posted March 15, 2009 Share Posted March 15, 2009 I've got the 83 Turbo supplement. It lists an adjustment spec for the rear alignment. Doesn't cover how to accomplish it, but the adjustment is listed. Specification yes,adjustment no! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gloyale Posted March 15, 2009 Share Posted March 15, 2009 Specification yes,adjustment no! OK, well let's see. You haven't even produced anything but talk to back up you're claim. It IS possible to make an adjustment to the rear. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
naru Posted March 15, 2009 Share Posted March 15, 2009 OK, well let's see. You haven't even produced anything but talk to back up you're claim. It IS possible to make an adjustment to the rear. Like I said,not factory reccomended. You haven`t produced anything.Who is all talk? Quote me the FSM passage. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gloyale Posted March 15, 2009 Share Posted March 15, 2009 (edited) This is for EA82. However.......the control arm to trailing arm bolt setup is identical. I don't have an EA81 FSM Regardless of what the books say, THERE IS AN ADJUSTMENT. that was his question, not "is there an FSM listing for adjustment?" So......you want to argue about it more? You've been making incorrect statements, like trying to challenge me, all day in 2 threads. is there a reason? Edited March 15, 2009 by Gloyale Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bratman2 Posted March 16, 2009 Share Posted March 16, 2009 I remember changing a front axle out on my daughter's 93 Legacy a few years back, car has been long gone now! I droped the "A" arm to do it super quick, took all of 20 minutes or so. Next day she tells me dad you messed up my car it pulls now. I drove it and sure enough it pulled ever so little to one side. I slid up under the car and the washer on the control arm bolt showed about an 1/8" of clean shiny control arm. It just so happens that the control arm has a hole that was maybe 1/4" bigger than the bolt. Adjusted back until the head of the bolt lined up and the pulling went away!! Maybe not a text book adjustment but did have an effect on alignment. What suprised me was how little it pulled and that she noticed!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caboobaroo Posted March 16, 2009 Share Posted March 16, 2009 Only a couple? I think you forgot a few Mr. ASE. What about.... Unequal Steering axis inclination Unequal scrub radius Bad rear toe resulting in a thrust angle between front and rear "axles" Dragging brake Defective power steering rack? No camber or caster adjustments in the front No individual wheel caster adjustment,but adjusting front/rear ride heights unequally on a 4wd will alter caster collectively. Well IF you want to be techincal,y ou're also forgetting Included angle as well. Yes, problems with the SAI, IA, thrust angle and scrub can cause pulling but unless you're out sliding over curbs and bending your suspension components, SAI and IA should be within the recommended factory specifications. I use SAI and IA to diagnose bent suspension parts because if its bent, the SAI and IA will basically tell me what portion of the suspension is bent. Like as been said already, even though the FSM doesn't say that its adjustbale for an EA81 (just checked my '83 FSM), it IS adjustable, though just enough to to get it back into specifications IF its a hair out. Like I said before, if you're out wheeling curbs, you're going to have more issues then the alignment. Also, yes, ride height can be an issue but you have to have it pretty far whacked out in order for it to really cause issues with the alignment itself. You're also forgetting the fact when people lower their cars, it'll throw the SAI out as well (hmm wonder why that is?) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gloyale Posted March 16, 2009 Share Posted March 16, 2009 N it IS adjustable, though just enough to to get it back into specifications IF its a hair out. Like I said before, if you're out wheeling curbs, you're going to have more issues then the alignment. If it's too far out int eh rear to be adjusted via the 3 bolts, then likely the pivot bushing in the end(s,ea82) of the links are shifted. Ussually toward the outside. Often, but not always a result of curb whacks. sometimes just age wears the rubber. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Txakura Posted March 17, 2009 Share Posted March 17, 2009 um... I have no credentials but his problem sounds like something in the front end is binding, (to me anyway) I hit a well placed boulder with my F250. The steering wouldn't return to center, turning to one side was better than the other. I searched and searched under the truck and never could find the impact point or anything visibly wrong. After some time it loosened up and acted normally. Then I blew the pressure seal out of my steering gear box output shaft and dumped my PS fluid out in one large -foosh-. When I went to change the seals, I found my lower shaft bearing in mini chunks o' shrapnel. The impact point was the tip of the output shaft just past the pitman arm, it munched the bearing - the binding - and chewed it to pieces - the freeing up of the steering... it wasn't until one of the bits ate the seal that I figured it out. Ended up replacing the whole steering gear box. His first post sounds like that to me, something is binding up in the steering and may have nothing to do with alignment. I yield the soap box to the next speaker. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caboobaroo Posted March 19, 2009 Share Posted March 19, 2009 If it's too far out int eh rear to be adjusted via the 3 bolts, then likely the pivot bushing in the end(s,ea82) of the links are shifted. Ussually toward the outside. Often, but not always a result of curb whacks. sometimes just age wears the rubber. Very true. I also thought of worn springs which is a problem the older Rangers/Explorers/Ford trucks have, causing the camber it go way in on the twin I-beam suspension. Anyways, typically if the alignment is far out, there is potentially another problem that has not been addressed and the alignment can show it. My thought on aftermarket camber/caster adjustments is this. If there's a need to use them on a stock car to get a value back into specification and is pretty far outside the manufacture's specified range, then its just a band-aid to fix a problem instead of actually fixing the problem to begin with. Just my $.02 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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