nbiehl Posted April 2, 2009 Share Posted April 2, 2009 Hi folks, Just acquired a 99 OBW, manual 5 speed with a few problems (got it cheap cause they couldn't solve the riddle.) When you come to a quick stop, she sputters and misses. If you try to keep going, she's got hardly any power. If you turn her off and back on, the problem goes away, she drives like she's brand new (so it seems like something that resets when you turn it off.) I haven't had it long enough to know if this is the only way you can make it lose power. Previous owner had a mechanic (small town guy, probably not a Suby mechanic) replace the coil, plug wires and plugs. Didn't solve anything. Any suggestions as to where to start looking? Thanks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EVOthis Posted April 2, 2009 Share Posted April 2, 2009 Any CEL on?...A shot in the dark from the info you have given....crank/cam sensor,fuel pump...How many miles are on the vehicle? any maintaince history? Are the new plug wires OEM?... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OB99W Posted April 3, 2009 Share Posted April 3, 2009 Sounds fuel-related, possibly foreign material in a fuel line/filter/tank that moves due to inertia from the quick stop and then obstructs. The fuel pump could tend to keep it there until the engine is shut down. Or not... What happens if you do a quick stop from reverse, rather than a forward gear? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nbiehl Posted April 3, 2009 Author Share Posted April 3, 2009 Car has 164,000 miles on it. Previous owner was a relative of mine and she bought it with 130K on it. She bought it from a guy (she says he was a Suby mechanic) who had done some serious rebuilding of the engine. He documented all of it, but I don't have those docs yet (she's sending me the records now.) She put 20K on it before this problem showed up. She bought a newer OBW and offered me this one cheap, and I just had a vehicle go tits up, so I took it. Will OEM wires have any distinguishing markings on them? I found the receipt for the work with the wiring kit part number on it, but it doesn't indicate manufacturer and they don't have a brand name on them. They fit well and don't look out of place, though. Mechanics receipt said he pulled and cleared 2 codes, one for a cyl 3 misfire and one for a cyl 4 misfire. The CEL is on right now, solid not blinking, whenever I turn on the car. I don't have a code reader. Any way to pull the codes myself without one? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnceggleston Posted April 3, 2009 Share Posted April 3, 2009 I don't have a code reader. Any way to pull the codes myself without one? many of the national chain auto parts stores will read codes for free, autozone, advance. year? model? trans? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nbiehl Posted April 3, 2009 Author Share Posted April 3, 2009 According to the VIN tag: 99 Legacy Outback Wagon EJ25 engine TY754 Manual 5 speed tranny Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nipper Posted April 3, 2009 Share Posted April 3, 2009 Get the codes read. There are some simple possabilities, but lets read the codes first. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nbiehl Posted April 4, 2009 Author Share Posted April 4, 2009 Borrowed a code scout from a local parts shop. Got 4 codes the first time: 0303 0304 0507 1507 Cleared those and started her up a couple of times. I got the 0507 every time I cleared it and re started her. Code scanner says that means "idle control system rpm higher than expexted." The first 2 are the same misfire codes the mechanic got last time around. The scanner didn't have an answer for the 1507 code. Thoughts? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nipper Posted April 4, 2009 Share Posted April 4, 2009 Lest start with a tuneup. Plugs (factory recomended type) wires (OE) PCV valve, fuel and air filter. Then we have a baseline. Also can you spray the coil pack and ignition wires with water in the evening and look for sparklies? Before you do anything, remove the wires from the plugs and see if they are soekd in oil. No need to put new wires in soaked oil buckets. If they are wet, then you need valve cover gaskets and bucket gromits (OE). nipper Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OB99W Posted April 4, 2009 Share Posted April 4, 2009 [...]Cleared those and started her up a couple of times. I got the 0507 every time I cleared it and re started her. Code scanner says that means ''idle control system rpm higher than expexted.'' Start by checking the intake area for leaks. There could be loose, cracked or disconnected vacuum hoses, or leaks around the throttle body, intake manifold, or IACV (Idle Air Control solenoid Valve) due to bad gaskets or something not sufficiently tightened. Or the IACV itself might be at fault. The first 2 are the same misfire codes the mechanic got last time around. The scanner didn't have an answer for the 1507 code. The misfire codes might be ignition-related, or due to mixture problems from an air leak. P1507 = Idle control system malfunction (fail-safe). It can have the same cause as P0507. However, the trans neutral switch not making good contact is also a known cause of P1507. See http://endwrench.com/images/pdfs/DiagTroubSum04.pdf . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gloyale Posted April 4, 2009 Share Posted April 4, 2009 double, see below Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gloyale Posted April 4, 2009 Share Posted April 4, 2009 P1507 = Idle control system malfunction (fail-safe). It can have the same cause as P0507. However, the trans neutral switch not making good contact is also a known cause of P1507. See http://endwrench.com/images/pdfs/DiagTroubSum04.pdf . My first thought when I read this thread was Idle Switch. For the misfires, check the routing of the plug wires. if they are close to the injector harness, move them, clip them out of the way, and or place that corrugated plastic wiring wrap around the sections that run near the injectors. *noise* from the plug wires can cause misfire of injectors. I've noticed it especially on the 99 and 2000 Outbacks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nbiehl Posted April 4, 2009 Author Share Posted April 4, 2009 You guys are incredible. Thanks for all the help. Some of the advice you've given me is over my head at the moment, so please be patient while I try to get up to speed. Which book do you recommend to familiarize myself with the EJ25 ( I have the Haynes book for my old Loyale, is there a better option?) Update on the situation: ran some Seafoam through the engine, crank case, and fuel tank. Cleaned an INCREDIBLE amount of sludge out of what I think is the PCV valve (whatever it is, it looked like someone had spit Copenhagen right into it.) Started her up again and let her smoke a while, cleared the codes. I started her up last night to go downtown and the CEL stayed off. Drove around a little bit to get to my various destinations and the CEL stayed off and she drove well. I tried to recreate the problem I had before by slamming on the brakes a few times and got no CEL and no misfires. I have some driving to do today, crossing my fingers. Will update later. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OB99W Posted April 5, 2009 Share Posted April 5, 2009 The PCV valve is supposed to be closed the most at idle, opening more as engine intake vacuum decreases with load. If the valve was sticky and remained too open at idle, that would effectively be an intake vacuum leak. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnceggleston Posted April 5, 2009 Share Posted April 5, 2009 The PCV valve is supposed to be closed the most at idle, opening more as engine intake vacuum decreases with load. If the valve was sticky and remained too open at idle, that would effectively be an intake vacuum leak. and what if it or the hose was clogged closed? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OB99W Posted April 5, 2009 Share Posted April 5, 2009 (edited) and what if it or the hose was clogged closed? If the PCV system gets plugged, the effect is the opposite of what I previously described. As far as the mixture is concerned, it tends to be enriched. Other than that, crankcase pressure builds up (which can blow oil past seals), the air filter can become oil-contaminated, and if the problem is allowed to exist long enough the engine can sludge up. EDIT: The PCV valve is a metering device -- it doesn't just have an ''open'' or ''closed'' state of operation. If it isn't free to flow as it was designed (whether due to sludge, the spring getting weak, etc.) it will negatively affect engine operation. Edited April 5, 2009 by OB99W added some info Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnceggleston Posted April 5, 2009 Share Posted April 5, 2009 If the PCV system gets plugged, the effect is the opposite of what I previously described. As far as the mixture is concerned, it tends to be enriched. Other than that, crankcase pressure builds up (which can blow oil past seals), the air filter can become oil-contaminated, and if the problem is allowed to exist long enough the engine can sludge up. thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nbiehl Posted April 6, 2009 Author Share Posted April 6, 2009 First off, this board is incredible. I'm basically a consumer mechanic (oil change, spark plugs, the occasional crisis with help from my pops) and I would have been way too intimidated by the fancy EJ25 to try to figure this out if you guys hadn't made it seem so doable. You could have told me that I didn't know $#!+ and I should keep my ignorant rump roast out of it, but instead you acted like my problem was your problem, and we could figure it out together. Because of that, I had a really fun weekend with my head under the hood getting to know my new rig. Thank you very much. UPDATE Drove the OBW all day on Saturday for around-town stuff. No CEL, no performance issues. On Sunday I decided to put her under a little more stress. Took her up a swervy hill pretty hard and got a CEL (not entirely sure, but I noticed the light right after I down-shifted to go around a pedestrian.) Code was P1507. Cleared that light. Got the same code when I went around a hard corner. I was on an unfamiliar road and I was distracted, so I think I actually went around that corner with the clutch in ( I wasn't trying to replicate any trouble conditions at that moment. I was really surprised when the light came on.) I think the light popped on when the force of the corner hit the car. I pulled over and checked that code and cleared it. I took her up another curvy, hilly stretch and got the same code at a seemingly random time, not when she was under a lot of pull or the RPMs were all that high. I did NOT clear that code (though I did check it, it was p1507) but the CEL didn't turn back on when I turned the car back on. On the way back down I was letting 5th gear slow me down while following another car and the CEL popped back on. This time I did not turn the car off so I could see if the power issue returned, and it did after a mile or so. She struggled up the smallest rises and bogged down when I stepped on the gas. She sputtered when I came to a stop, and I turned her off. when I started her up again, it was like nothing had happened (except the CEL stayed on this time.) Checking the codes after that, there was only the P1507, no misfire codes. After that test, I thought that the problem was only going to arise when I hot rodded her, but I got another CEL driving at in-town speeds after I gave the code scout back to the store. I think I was letting the tranny slow me down approaching a stop sign when it happened. I can't be entirely sure, but I'd bet that CEL is the p1507 again. So it looks like the P1507 is something I need to remedy, whether or not it's related to the sputtering issue (and I really don't have proof that the two are linked at this point.) So where do I find the "trouble tree" for the P1507 code? NB ps, any recommendations for a book that gets me more in tune with this rig? (Chiltons, Haynes etc? I've heard good and bad about both, but never from experts...) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OB99W Posted April 6, 2009 Share Posted April 6, 2009 I'm glad you're making progress, and seem to be enjoying it. Reread the last paragraph of my post #10 in this thread, and look at the information at EndWrench in the link I posted. Checking the transmission neutral switch for reliable contact is the first thing to do. Once the ECU is ''unhappy'' enough to give you a P1507 code, it's in a fail-safe mode and engine performance will suffer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nbiehl Posted April 7, 2009 Author Share Posted April 7, 2009 Hey OB99W, I actually did read that link. That's where I got the term "trouble tree:" If you are diagnosing a manual transmission equipped vehicle with a DTC P1507 and can find nothing wrong after following the trouble tree in the appropriate service manual, inspect the Neutral Switch Circuit before replacing any parts. I have yet to fully follow any trouble tree, so I haven't ruled out the other causes for a P1507 code. I found this while searching: I realized that Sunday morning, before I got all of the codes, I had removed the hose to the PCV valve and cleaned the valve some more with some carb cleaner. It was cold and the hose was hard to remove and replace, so I could have created a leak that threw the code as well. Also, the collar that connects that big chunk of black plastic to the intake manifold was loose enough to spin around (WTF?!) Would any of those intake issues be solved by cutting power, though? Should I test the neutral switch, or just replace it cause its cheap? How would I test it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OB99W Posted April 7, 2009 Share Posted April 7, 2009 You'll note that my post #10 specifically mentions the intake vacuum leak issue in reference to P0507, and I further said that P1507 could have the same causes. So yes, do fix any obvious intake leaks. Would any of those intake issues be solved by cutting power, though? Okay, I think I see why you're having a problem with what I've been saying. No, the issues aren't ''solved by cutting power''. What happens is that when the ECU detects a fault sufficent to trip code P1507, it puts the engine management system in a fail-safe (limping) mode. It will stay in that mode until you shut off the engine. The next time the engine is started, it will run fine unless the ECU again detects the conditions that can trigger P1507, and if it does will re-enter fail-safe. So, what you are experiencing is likely just the ''limping'' mode after the fault is detected. Should I test the neutral switch, or just replace it cause its cheap? How would I test it? You should first deal with vacuum leaks. Once you've done that, if P1507 still comes up, the switch can be tested with an ohmmeter, as described in the EndWrench piece. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unibrook Posted April 8, 2009 Share Posted April 8, 2009 Does the car hesitate and misfire? Does it only seem to have the problem when the engine is warm? If so, try replacing the front 02 sensor. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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