littlecars Posted July 14, 2009 Author Share Posted July 14, 2009 It looks like it will be easier to replace the gasket again then do a compresson test! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnceggleston Posted July 14, 2009 Share Posted July 14, 2009 If I put the wrong cam pullies in the wrong spot would that matter? or is that even possible. I a pretty surI put them on in the same spots I took them off. But not possitive. If I had them in the wrong spot the marks would be way way to far off, right? i thought only one cam sprocket had the necessary "tabs" (reluctors) for the cam sensor. if so that sprocket can't be in the wrong place. it could ba a little off though. i don't know about the others. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gloyale Posted July 14, 2009 Share Posted July 14, 2009 Is there any of the factory assembly paint still on the pulleys? I have had a few DOHCs end up with the cast marks appearing slightly off, to the point where it was a judgement call as to which way *off* was closer. That is when I noticed the paint marks. When I went with the paint to be the *swing vote* it ended up running the best and having the best compresison. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davebugs Posted July 14, 2009 Share Posted July 14, 2009 IIR sometimes the cam sprockets on the drivers side don't align perfectly. What brand of belt did you use? The Dayco's seem to have the alignment issues and the OEM ones don't seem to have the issue (I use Dayco's). I'd probably remove everything (including cam sprockets) and start over. I just have a cheap (Grand Rapids Industrial Products - read China) compression set. That was when I ruin it I'm not out a lot of money. I've even used them for oil pressure before. But yea - on a DOHC it's a lot of fun. Enough that I thought about building a stand to be able to do compression checks with the engine out of the car but I thought that would be an unfair test after putting engines back together and not really being run. Perhaps this was in another thread but what was the reason to do the HG's and were there any codes then? Were the heads checked? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mdjdc Posted July 14, 2009 Share Posted July 14, 2009 Two thing come to mind for me. First, I think that the TB is off. You need to fully pull the covers and set the main crank on the proper mark for timing. Then set the other cams on their timing marks and see if everything lines up. I bet you just pulled the side covers and they look good. I have had them look good and when I pulled the center cover I found the cam was off by a tooth. At this point I would pull the engine and replace the HG's with subie gaskets. With felpro you will only be doing the job again in a few months anyway. Felpro are graphite and the OEM are multi layered steel. Do Not use any after market gaskets. I have done this and ended up seeing failure within 400 miles. I use only subie head gaskets. I have never had one fail. As far as the bolts are concerned, you NEVER have to replace them. They are not like other companies bolts that stretch and need to be replaced. If someone talked you into replacing them, he didn't know what he was talking about. If you decide to do the job again, make sure you haven't mixed up the intake and exhaust cams themselves. That can be done and would also result in a situation like yours. My bet still goes with the TB being off a tooth on that side. Good luck. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
littlecars Posted July 14, 2009 Author Share Posted July 14, 2009 The reason I did the hg's were. i had a little exhoust smell in the coolent, random overheating, and a little white smoke out the exhoust. It still ran great, no missing, and no check engion light. The felpro gaskets I used are MLS gaskets. I just looked at the timing again and it is spot on. I dont remember what brand of tb I used. It is extremely unlikely that I have exhoust and intake cams swapped. I marked them befor I took them out. But how do I tell what cam goes where? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nipper Posted July 14, 2009 Share Posted July 14, 2009 Got a vacume gauge handy? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
littlecars Posted July 14, 2009 Author Share Posted July 14, 2009 I wish I would have used this forum befor I wasted $150 on new head bolts!!! and 20 hour replaceing HG's that wont work!!! Oh whell, I bet I can do it in less than 12 hours this time!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
littlecars Posted July 15, 2009 Author Share Posted July 15, 2009 I dont have a vacumn gauge. I have the front half off of the motor and I sounds like I will have to re-replace the HG's anywheys. so I better just do it and hope my idleing problem is gone when I am done!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davebugs Posted July 15, 2009 Share Posted July 15, 2009 White smoke on a 2.5 is RARE in my opinion. Sometimes on 2.2's but very rare on 2.5's. That's just not how they leak. Did you have the heads checked? Valve guides (would be unusual to have issues at virtually any mileage), perhaps bent a little? Did somebody check them for flatness - 4 thousanths is the limit according to what I found in Endwrench and what I go by IIR. Out of adjustment? It really still sounds like a TB issues. But the white smoke is an unusual symptom for a 2.5. Perhaps others here have experienced this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnceggleston Posted July 15, 2009 Share Posted July 15, 2009 stop, wait!!! maybe you need to replace the the HGs again, but that is useless until you figure out what is causing your problem. better to figure it out now than to do all the work again and still have problems. i'm no pro, but i think it would have to be a pretty odd situation that causes your problems, just because of an off brand head gasket. usually the off brand gaskets fail sooner, not fail imediately. but i could be wrong. if it is not the timing belt, what might it be?? what are the symtoms again, ok at speed, rough at idle??? if you are 110% sure the timing belt is right, (btw: posting pictures would help convince the rest of us), diagnose the problem from scratch, disregarding the belt. lot's of stuff gets undone when gaskets are replaced. maybe there are other things that could cause these problems. i recently remember a problem caused by a couple of vacuum hoses being swapped. what else might cause this this problem.?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Log1call Posted July 15, 2009 Share Posted July 15, 2009 The sprockets, I would imagine, are like the older ones and offset so the left and right sides line up... the L/R cylinders are offset front and rear remember? So one set will be concave and the other convex, well not actually, but sort of, if you get what I mean. Have you used the correct mark on the crank alignment though? A compression test will probably not show anything. For a blown head-gaskey to effect the running you would have to have other symptoms, like water loss, pressurised radiator etc. A "Teekay" or comparable hydro-carbon test of the cooling system wil show a slightly blown head-gasket though so you could get one of those tests done. Are you sure the injector wires are connected properly, and to the right place. Did you lap the valves when you did the heads? Perhaps the leaking gaskets had caused leaky valves but you hadn't noticed before doing the heads. Describe this bad idling to us, perhaps someone will click what it is with a better discription. Start it cold and take note of every symptom and state till it warms up. Can you connect a laptop to it and record some data? Ignition timing, revs, throttle position, injector pulse width, ISC valve duty cycle? Can you connect a vacuum gauge and do some tests with that? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
littlecars Posted July 15, 2009 Author Share Posted July 15, 2009 I did not have the heads check for cracks, and I did not take the valves out. I cleaned them very, very, very good and looked for cracks. I do not know exactly where to check so I looked everywhere, expetualy between the valves and the spark plug hole. I could not fit the smallest feeler gauge between the head and the flat edge. I put machinest blueing on then and ran them acrost a quartz stone at work ( +/_ .00001") within a few seconds the blueing was gone. so they are very very flat. definatly within spec. Then you ask "out of adjustment" do you mean the valves? I didnt know they could be adjusted? how do I do that. I took them out, marked them and put them back in the same spot. I didnt even check the with a feeler gauge. The symptons again are: runs great at driving speed. plenty of power. at idle it is very rough. like it is missing. I can hear a little bit of popping out the exhoust, but not much, only at idle If I am behind the car. I took it to autozone and they scanned it. they said missing on #2 and #4. I sprayed starting fluid to check for vacumn leaks and did not find any. I took apart every electrical wire cleaned then looked close at them and put then back together. I will try to send some pictures. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
littlecars Posted July 15, 2009 Author Share Posted July 15, 2009 crank pulley upper passanger cam pulley passanger cam pullies lower passanger cam pulley Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
littlecars Posted July 15, 2009 Author Share Posted July 15, 2009 drivers side upper pulley drivers side pulley drivers side lower pulley (the cammera is upside down, it is the only whay I could fit the camera there The hole thing Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nipper Posted July 15, 2009 Share Posted July 15, 2009 I'm not convinced you have a HG issue at all, period. If you did you would have over heating at speed, gurgling, loss of coolant the whole schtick. We need more diagnositcs first, and maybe some fresh eyes to look at it. nipper Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
littlecars Posted July 15, 2009 Author Share Posted July 15, 2009 I did not disconnect the fuel injector to to the heads. I didnt event take the intake off. I just unbolted it and left it in place. Since then I disconnected the injectors cleaned the connections and reconnected them one at a time. I didnt lap the valves. The idle is rough. the motor shakes and shimmies. it reminds me of my old air cooled VW when one of the dual carbs was screwed up and only running on 2 cylinders. there is a little hesitation when i first hit the throddle but as soon as the motor speeds up it has good power and runs smooth. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
littlecars Posted July 15, 2009 Author Share Posted July 15, 2009 does the tb look good to everybody? someone mentioned that if I had the intake and exhoust cams reversed I would have a problem like this. I would think that the woodruff key is in a place to where it I put them in reveresed the the timming would be way off.. I marked the cams before I took the out but maybe I made a mistake. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nipper Posted July 15, 2009 Share Posted July 15, 2009 Again we are back to needing a vacume gauge. Not lapping the valves is a mistake. Not having the surface finish of the heads refreshed is a mistake. Maybe it is the HG, and not directly the HG fault. http://www.aa1car.com/library/ic697.htm nipper Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davebugs Posted July 15, 2009 Share Posted July 15, 2009 I can't get the pics ot blow up big enough. What I can make out looks good. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nipper Posted July 15, 2009 Share Posted July 15, 2009 Open an account at photobucket *free) and post there, as i am having a hard time seeing them too. nipper Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Log1call Posted July 15, 2009 Share Posted July 15, 2009 It sounds like a leaking valve to me, leaking or not timed properly, or too tight,eg no clearance. Hydraulic lifters perhaps? If they are miss-timed I'd expect the performance to be down right through the rev range.. Dull and flat with more noise than go. With a leaking valve, there can be enought leakage at low revs to have a significantt effect on compression and running, but at higher revs the small leak doesn't have as much effect on the overall compression because there isn't time for much air to leak out... so the performance becomes as it should be at revs. A vacuum gauge should confirm a mechanical fault like a leaking valve. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fairtax4me Posted July 15, 2009 Share Posted July 15, 2009 Id do a leakdown test. That will tell you exactly what the problem is if it's compression related. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Olnick Posted July 15, 2009 Share Posted July 15, 2009 A vacuum gauge should confirm a mechanical fault like a leaking valve. Log1call's observation ^ makes a lot of sense at this point. I'd think a compression test would be a wise next step. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
littlecars Posted July 15, 2009 Author Share Posted July 15, 2009 Again we are back to needing a vacume gauge. Not lapping the valves is a mistake. Not having the surface finish of the heads refreshed is a mistake. Maybe it is the HG, and not directly the HG fault. http://www.aa1car.com/library/ic697.htm nipper If you read the link you posted closely it states "some experts say heads that mate to MLS gaskets should not be resurfaced unless absolutely necessary".some experts say this and some disagree. I think that it sould be closely checked and only resurfaced if necassary. (Maybe we can agree to disagree)That why I used blueing and ran it acrost a quarts stone. The stone I used is certified every year and as flat as they come. this is the exact kind of stuff it is for. I am confident the heads are flat and just as smooth as factory, if not a little smoother. As far as lapping the valves, maybe I should have. my idea was that the car would be rusted out long before the motor would be worn out so I thought it would be a waste of my time. It ran fine when I pulled the engion apart. I figured it would run just as good when I put it together. but I guess I am wrong. Does anyone have a brand/model of compresson tester that they have found easier to use on a subaru? If I get off work on time tomarrow I will go buy a compresson tester and a vacume gauge. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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