Zefy Posted September 5, 2009 Share Posted September 5, 2009 i just swapped in a 2003 ej25 into my 99 ej22 car. It won't start. i swapped the intake manifold off my old engine and everything plugged in perfectly. the car sputters and started only a couple of time but it would only stay running if i gave it lots of throttle and it would backfire through the intake enough to blow the clasps off the toque box. it was also blowing black soot out the tailpipe and it seems to have fowled a set of plugs. i pulled them out after the short run and it was covered in black soot. i changed the plugs, coil, and wires with no results. The motor is new. the car it was in fell off the truck back in 2003 and it was pulled and put in storage since then. It did have storage oil in the cylinders so i'm guessing that's the reason for the soot and plugs. but backfiring? missing? it feels like an ignition issue. but......? any help would be greatly appreciated! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lmdew Posted September 5, 2009 Share Posted September 5, 2009 Have you pulled the codes for the CEL? Sounds like a timing issue to me. When it was back firing it may have jumped the timing. It would be worth a look. I'd start with the CEL codes and then the timing. The ECU and wiring may be different even though the plugs were the same. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idosubaru Posted September 5, 2009 Share Posted September 5, 2009 in some cases you can swap EJ22 and EJ25 engines straight up. not in this case though. to make it work you need to swap cam sprockets. you're welcome! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GLCraig Posted September 5, 2009 Share Posted September 5, 2009 At some point, Subaru started using different cam pulleys for automatic vs. manual transmission. I know you don't want to hear this but you may need to swap the driver side pulleys between the two engines. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idosubaru Posted September 5, 2009 Share Posted September 5, 2009 At some point, Subaru started using different cam pulleys for automatic vs. manual transmission. i don't think that's true, where did you hear this? i already indicated above that the CAM pulleys need swapped, but it's not an auto-manual difference. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lmdew Posted September 7, 2009 Share Posted September 7, 2009 If you need the steel 2.2 cam sprockets, I have a few sets. I could send you a set. Lmdew@hotmail.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zefy Posted September 8, 2009 Author Share Posted September 8, 2009 thanks for the offer. I also have multiple sets of cam sprockets. here is the real deal. READY? there is NO DIFFERENCE between ej25 and ej22 cam sprockets. ej25 vs. ej22. I have cam sprockets from 1990 to 2003 and they ALL look the same. Now i'm sure DOHC might be different but as far as SOHC goes it is all the same. so that doesn't explain my issues getting it to run. So i investigated the crank gear. Low and behold, also the same! here is my problem: pictures are a little deceptive. the driverside cam is off 2 teeth and that was as close as i could get it to showing the problem. Runs great now. this is a direct swap. Pull off my intake manifold, put it on the new engine. BAM. works. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OB99W Posted September 8, 2009 Share Posted September 8, 2009 (edited) The piece entitled ''Incorrect Parts Substitution'' on page 12 of http://endwrench.com/images/pdfs/Emissions.pdf might be interesting. Looking closely at the picture of the two sprockets above, it appears that the reluctor positions are shifted slightly on one versus the other. Edited September 8, 2009 by OB99W Clarity Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnceggleston Posted September 8, 2009 Share Posted September 8, 2009 (edited) Runs great now. this is a direct swap. Pull off my intake manifold, put it on the new engine. BAM. works. i'm a little lost. you put the 03 ej25 into the 99 ej22 car and it would not run, you compared the cam sprockets and found them to b the same, swapped the intake from the ej22 onto the ej25 block and now it runs???? is this correct????? also, the pics are deceptive since it looks like both cams are off. more info please, what did you do to correct the problem? what intake is on the ej25 you installed in your 99 2.2L car?? nice pics by the way. and kudos for even attempting this. Edited September 8, 2009 by johnceggleston Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zefy Posted September 8, 2009 Author Share Posted September 8, 2009 (edited) i'm a little lost. you put the 03 ej25 into the 99 ej22 car and it would not run, you compared the cam sprockets and found them to b the same, swapped the intake from the ej22 onto the ej25 block and now it runs???? is this correct????? also, the pics are deceptive since it looks like both cams are off. more info please, what did you do to correct the problem? what intake is on the ej25 you installed in your 99 2.2L car?? nice pics by the way. and kudos for even attempting this. this has already been covered but: it is an 03 ej25 longblock with an ej22 intake manifold. The only difference i could see with the intake manifold is the 03 has a MAP sensor while the ej22 has the MAF so i used the ej22 manifold. The longblock has not been changed at all. The problem was the drivers side cam was off 2 teeth. The pictures are deceptive. The cams should be pointing straight up along with the crank. Everybody thought that the cam gears were the issue. I'm letting everybody know that they are the same between both engines. The problem i had was unique to my engine because the previous owner took of the timing belt and didn't put it back on properly so it wouldn't run properly. Edited September 8, 2009 by Zefy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
subaru360 Posted September 9, 2009 Share Posted September 9, 2009 thanks for the offer. I also have multiple sets of cam sprockets. here is the real deal. READY? there is NO DIFFERENCE between ej25 and ej22 cam sprockets. ej25 vs. ej22. I have cam sprockets from 1990 to 2003 and they ALL look the same. Now i'm sure DOHC might be different but as far as SOHC goes it is all the same. There is another cam sprocket besides the one you pictured. I have a few in my parts bins, if I get a chance I will take a pic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
logic23 Posted September 9, 2009 Share Posted September 9, 2009 Yeah having the timing belt off two teeth would cause all kinds of "fun" noises on startup. What did you do about the exhaust? single vs dual port issue? Y pipe from 2.5? Another question: all subaru sohc pulleys are the same tooth count and are completely interchangeable with out messing up the timing ratios? Forgive me if this has been covered 100 times I am new to the swapping of subaru engines ( 2.2 to 2.5 etc) My first couple subarus and the ones my customers owned were legacys so i never had to mess with the engines just cv joints and wheel bearings Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zefy Posted September 9, 2009 Author Share Posted September 9, 2009 Yeah having the timing belt off two teeth would cause all kinds of "fun" noises on startup. What did you do about the exhaust? single vs dual port issue? Y pipe from 2.5? Another question: all subaru sohc pulleys are the same tooth count and are completely interchangeable with out messing up the timing ratios? Forgive me if this has been covered 100 times I am new to the swapping of subaru engines ( 2.2 to 2.5 etc) My first couple subarus and the ones my customers owned were legacys so i never had to mess with the engines just cv joints and wheel bearings i used a 2.5rs y-pipe. they are extremely easy to come by and they work fine. these are the two types of reluctors. http://www.northursalia.com/techdocs/pdf/engine/reluctor.pdf i have only ever seen L-MPI systems. This is ranging from 1990 to 2003 SOHC engines. Now i'm not saying they are ALL the same. I'm saying most seem to be. It is really easy to see the difference without the pulley being off. You can just pop the cover and and feel for the teeth. It should be blatanlty obvious which one you have. Now there could also be alignment issues between the cam gears and i don't know about the tooth count for the timing belt. I only checked the pickup locations for the sensor. In my experience, (limited) a phase 2 ej22 longblock can be replaced with an ej251 longblock (SOHC) without issue. frankly, i jump in to this swap a little to eager beaver style and it wound up working in my favor. Do your research and physically check the components to make sure you're getting what you think you're getting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
logic23 Posted September 11, 2009 Share Posted September 11, 2009 Ok im confused: Is the 99 2.2 engine a type 2? I have a 98 2.2 (type 1) and the manifolds that you say you just swapped are no where near the same. The type 2 vs type 1 manifolds are 1/2 to 3/4 wider and a slightly different bolt pattern. What up yo? I thought type 2 2.2 started in 2000 and were only in Imprezas. Any help on the years and type engine clarification would be greatly appreciated. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
subaru360 Posted September 11, 2009 Share Posted September 11, 2009 99 Legacy is Phase 2 for the 2.2 and Phase 1 for the 2.5 99 Impreza is Phase 2 for 2.5 also but I'm drawing a blank on the 2.2? I think those were still phase 1? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2.5GL Posted September 11, 2009 Share Posted September 11, 2009 1998 Models all had Phase 1 2.2 or DOHC 2.5 1999 Forester had the phase 2 SOHC 2.5 1999 Legacy and Impreza ran the phase 2 2.2 1999 Outback had the Phase 1 DOHC 2.5 1999 Impreza RS had Phase 2 SOHC 2.5 2000 Legacy all got the phase 2 2.5, no more 2.2 2000 Impreza continued to have the phase 2 2.2 and 2.5 I am not certain about newer models after this... If anybody knows more, by all means... .... ... Cam & Crank Gears... The timing marks on the reverse are different. I am not 100% certain of the year but I believe 2003 had a difference between CA and Federal Emissions. These Pulleys had three teeth on the cam gear, not seven. and the crank had like 15 -20 teeth, not seven. I have seen the swap done, not run, car towed all over the Northwest from dealer to dealer before it landed at my shop (an independent). I played with it for a bit, and thought timing issue fairly quickly. Pulled the belt and decided to check the teeth on the pulleys to make sure none were missing. I then thought, "wow, hadn't seen this before" and installed the other pulleys pictured above. Car started, ran like poo for about 10 minutes (cats filled with fuel) and then it ran like a champ. If nobody gets a pick up of the different pulleys in the next few days, I'll see if I can find the ones in question, take pic, and post. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
logic23 Posted September 11, 2009 Share Posted September 11, 2009 Thanks for clearing that up. I would like to see the pics of the different gears. Also I just dismantled a 2.5 phase 2 engine and both pulleys were metal... any one seen this? Is this a 2003 + engine? All the ones i've worked on up until now are plastic and metal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zefy Posted September 12, 2009 Author Share Posted September 12, 2009 Thanks for clearing that up. I would like to see the pics of the different gears. Also I just dismantled a 2.5 phase 2 engine and both pulleys were metal... any one seen this? Is this a 2003 + engine? All the ones i've worked on up until now are plastic and metal. the link to the PDF file i posted earlier has pictures of both the the crank and cam gears from both styles. the only engines i've seen that have both metal gears is phase 1 2.2's. got any pics of the engine in general? 2003 should have the plastic gear. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
logic23 Posted September 13, 2009 Share Posted September 13, 2009 The dual metal gear engine was a replacement for a 2001 forester with a rod sticking out of the block. Yeah it was weird when I took the timing cover off and saw 2 metal gears. Counted the teeth on timing belt and got 223 (i think this was the count). same number of teeth as other 2.5 phase 2 engines I've worked on. Engine is in car and is running great. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevin M Posted April 9, 2017 Share Posted April 9, 2017 1998 Models all had Phase 1 2.2 or DOHC 2.5 1999 Forester had the phase 2 SOHC 2.5 1999 Legacy and Impreza ran the phase 2 2.2 1999 Outback had the Phase 1 DOHC 2.5 1999 Impreza RS had Phase 2 SOHC 2.5 2000 Legacy all got the phase 2 2.5, no more 2.2 2000 Impreza continued to have the phase 2 2.2 and 2.5 I am not certain about newer models after this... If anybody knows more, by all means... .... ... Cam & Crank Gears... The timing marks on the reverse are different. I am not 100% certain of the year but I believe 2003 had a difference between CA and Federal Emissions. These Pulleys had three teeth on the cam gear, not seven. and the crank had like 15 -20 teeth, not seven. I have seen the swap done, not run, car towed all over the Northwest from dealer to dealer before it landed at my shop (an independent). I played with it for a bit, and thought timing issue fairly quickly. Pulled the belt and decided to check the teeth on the pulleys to make sure none were missing. I then thought, "wow, hadn't seen this before" and installed the other pulleys pictured above. Car started, ran like poo for about 10 minutes (cats filled with fuel) and then it ran like a champ. If nobody gets a pick up of the different pulleys in the next few days, I'll see if I can find the ones in question, take pic, and post. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevin M Posted April 9, 2017 Share Posted April 9, 2017 1998 Models all had Phase 1 2.2 or DOHC 2.5 1999 Forester had the phase 2 SOHC 2.5 1999 Legacy and Impreza ran the phase 2 2.2 1999 Outback had the Phase 1 DOHC 2.5 1999 Impreza RS had Phase 2 SOHC 2.5 2000 Legacy all got the phase 2 2.5, no more 2.2 2000 Impreza continued to have the phase 2 2.2 and 2.5 I am not certain about newer models after this... If anybody knows more, by all means... .... ... Cam & Crank Gears... The timing marks on the reverse are different. I am not 100% certain of the year but I believe 2003 had a difference between CA and Federal Emissions. These Pulleys had three teeth on the cam gear, not seven. and the crank had like 15 -20 teeth, not seven. I have seen the swap done, not run, car towed all over the Northwest from dealer to dealer before it landed at my shop (an independent). I played with it for a bit, and thought timing issue fairly quickly. Pulled the belt and decided to check the teeth on the pulleys to make sure none were missing. I then thought, "wow, hadn't seen this before" and installed the other pulleys pictured above. Car started, ran like poo for about 10 minutes (cats filled with fuel) and then it ran like a champ. If nobody gets a pick up of the different pulleys in the next few days, I'll see if I can find the ones in question, take pic, and post. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevin M Posted April 9, 2017 Share Posted April 9, 2017 I believe I'm having this issue too with my 2003 I have a ej25 motor I swapped with a ej20 switched the cam and crank pulleys and still no start. I'm lost Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2.5GL Posted April 9, 2017 Share Posted April 9, 2017 To confirm: You put your original pulleys on the new engine? Double check to see if they match the used engine pulleys regarding to location of the pin for the notch on the cam and crank. I have not ever looked at an EJ20, and I am not familiar with the little things about it. As long as the two engines are timed the same as well as the electronics hooking up, I don't see why it shouldn't run. L Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevin M Posted April 9, 2017 Share Posted April 9, 2017 I forgot to put the crank sprockets from the ej25 on the ej20. Did that and started right up. Runs very good. Thank u very much for your quick response. Seems like Subaru people are a good bunch of guys and gals. Thank you all again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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