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Dealer did NOT replace water pump


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24 replies to this topic

#1 Lesbaru

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Posted 22 February 2004 - 08:56 AM

When I had my timing belt and engine seals replaced the dealer didn't replace the water pump, even though I said I'd heard it should be replaced. He said it was fine. Now, considering he's quick to tell me every little thing that should be fixed in my car, I wonder if I should believe him.

How important is it to replace the water pump (105k)? Will they keep running ok in a 96 Legacy? Will the sky fall, the oceans burn, and the world as we know it end if the pump isn't replaced?

#2 99obw

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Posted 22 February 2004 - 09:02 AM

I think it is very important. I have had water pumps last longer, but more often I have them fail in the 120k - 140k range. I am firmly in the preemptive water pump replacement camp.

Do you have a 2.2? How many miles at your last timing belt job?

#3 Setright

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Posted 22 February 2004 - 10:29 AM

I would second the 120k-140k miles life expectancy.


So, if the pump is ok now, replace it later - how much time before you reach "critical mileage? BTW, the main worry is the bearing, which might fail and allow enough play to let the timing belt jump a tooth. As soon as this happens, you will notice the difference. That would be the time to replace the pump!

#4 northguy

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Posted 22 February 2004 - 12:37 PM

I suggest you get another dealer to workon your car. Is this the same bozo who caused you grief earlier, or are you just cursed with bad repair work?

#5 DerFahrer

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Posted 22 February 2004 - 01:39 PM

I don't know how Subaru dealers do this, but at my Toyota dealer, we do a "package" deal: Timing belt, water pump, tensioner, and seals. If you bought such a package from the Subaru dealer, or the water pump shows up on your invoice, or basically you paid for it and it wasn't done, you have every right to take it back to them and have the pump replaced gratis.

And no, don't expect an original water pump to last much more than 120k miles...

#6 kevinsUBARU

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Posted 22 February 2004 - 01:44 PM

Mine crapped at 58K. Now coming up on 100K, Ill probably have to have it replaced again :rolleyes:

#7 bratman2

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Posted 22 February 2004 - 08:16 PM

Lesbaru, Just done the timing belt on my daughter's 1993 2.2l with 159.5k and I replaced the orginal water pump which was still good, preventive replacement. Alot of factors can effect water pump life, do you have the cooling system flushed or replaced on a regular basis? I guess the point of my reply is that a water pump can last longer, how much is hard to say and at the same time if it does go out it may take the timing belt with it leaving you on the side of the road. If you have the 60k timing belt routine catch it the next time, if you have not recentily changed your antifreeze now would be a good time.

#8 ezapar

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Posted 23 February 2004 - 01:06 PM

Originally posted by Lesbaru
When I had my timing belt and engine seals replaced the dealer didn't replace the water pump, even though I said I'd heard it should be replaced. He said it was fine. Now, considering he's quick to tell me every little thing that should be fixed in my car, I wonder if I should believe him.

How important is it to replace the water pump (105k)? Will they keep running ok in a 96 Legacy? Will the sky fall, the oceans burn, and the world as we know it end if the pump isn't replaced?



I suggest you get to Seattle and let Mike at Smart Service take care of that car. How dare you let a dealer mess with it? LOL

#9 Lesbaru

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Posted 23 February 2004 - 02:45 PM

Yeah, yeah! I wanna bring it to Seattle ! My lovely 2.2L needs Mike!! (who wants to find me a job and a house?) (actually, I'll be home in April and hopefully looking for a job and house/apt.)

I've had the coolant flushed. (I assume previous owner -and USMB member- kept up with it, too.)
I'm very careful to replace everything that even hints at needing it.

No, this dealer is the one who fixed the mess the independent mechanic (who had no license and ran away) made of my car. This dealer has done some work and given me some parts for free, so he's on my good list.

I'm inclined to trust his judgement, but I worry because everyone always says to change the pump at the same time as the belt. He said it checked out fine, so they left it. Pump did not show up on my invoice, just seals and belts.

Heck, I'm a major worry-wart. (cuz I like my car and want to keep it running well)

Thanks, everyone!

#10 Tolerance02

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Posted 23 February 2004 - 03:15 PM

As a Sube mechanic since 1982 I 've replaced a lot of Legacy T belts and never replaced the water pump along with the belt.
In my opinion it's a waste of customers money.
In don't think I had to replace 5 pumps from Legacy untill now since they are imported here (end 1989).
Many of my customers have far over 300,000km (200,000 miles) with their good old first original water pump.

So Lesbaru, your mechanic is OK. I think he is honestly concerned about your wallet. :)

Urban.

#11 benebob

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Posted 23 February 2004 - 05:15 PM

I've never replaced a water pump in a Subie. That said when I do my belt this spring in the SVX it is getting a new pump (140k) and a new oil pump.

#12 99obw

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Posted 23 February 2004 - 05:48 PM

The failure rate of most components follows a normal distribution or "bell curve". You must ask yourself where on this curve you want to be.

I am going to make up some numbers for the sake of illustration.

If the average water pump lasts 200k miles, but 20% of them fail by 150k miles, when do you want to replace yours? I think I would still want to replace the water pump near 100k miles because spending $100 to prevent a 20% chance of a $2500 repair(timing belt failure) or a $500 repair(timing belt and water pump replacement) is at worst a break even strategy. I don't have any statistical data, but I feel confident that replacing the water pump at 105k or 120k miles is a good investment because I think I am being very generous by suggesting that the average water pump lasts for 200k miles. This is not a component one wants to extract every last mile from.

I personally want to keep the probability of water pump failure on this type of engine as low as possible, and the only way to do that is proper maintanence and periodic replacement.

#13 cookie

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Posted 23 February 2004 - 11:42 PM

When I had the belt changed on my Forester I had the water pump replaced.
It seems like cheap insurance to me.
It will be nearly another 100,000 miles before my Forester comes apart again with luck and the odds are against the pump lasting that long.
It is good that your mechanic is trying to save you money though.
I am sure he is going by his experience with Subarus locally.
I want my car in the kind of condition that if I want to hop into it tomorrow and go on a 10,000 mile trip it will most likely do it.

#14 DerFahrer

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Posted 24 February 2004 - 01:01 AM

My cooling system has been well-taken care of since the car was new, still have original radiator with no leaks anywhere, coolant is green as candy...

At 118k, my water pump didn't squeal, but knocked ever-so-much like a rod knocking!!! It freaked me out!

And a friend of mine in North Florida, did a timing belt change without replacing the pump, and not 4,000 miles later, his went out on him, had to do it all over again...

Might as well while you're in there :)

#15 richierich

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Posted 24 February 2004 - 02:42 AM

You left the car there, and told them to replace the seals, timing belt and water pump, and they did not replace it as requested?

If that is the case I would go back to them and say that they did not do the work correctly. And they need to go back in there for the .5 hours labor and the cost of the part and fix it correctly. You did not ask them to diagnos if it needed a new waterpump you asked them to replace it.

If they told you they were not going to do it, before the work was started, then not much you can do but go to a different repair shop that does listen to you.


As for needed to be replaced at 105K, I say it is premature but defiantely a not out of the ordinary. I have seen them go bad with as little as 57k miles on them. I have also replace a handfull by 95k miles. I would say the average is about 130k-160k. With a handfull lasting out beyond 185k.

But on my customer vehicles, I always at least give them the choice of replacing it at the 105k mark for the 2.5 and the 120k mark for the 2.2 motors. Paying the extra money now, it is better than a tow bill and the fustration, and definately is better than being stuck while you are out of town.

#16 Tolerance02

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Posted 24 February 2004 - 07:05 AM

By the few pumps i had to replace it was just because of a small leak that was detected during a service. Never had a Legacy water pump with a bad bearing. Never had a costumer with breakdown because of the pump.
Those engines are non interference so even if the belt should breake there is no further damage.

Wen i replace the T belt i do not even drain the coolant which makes a big difference in working hours, radiator still in place, just remove the fan and expantion tank.

Legacy water pump is very relyable and i dont see any reason to replace it while there is no visible wear.

For a experianced mechanic who has the right tools it's not that much work to remove the T belt if necessary.

Urban.

#17 99obw

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Posted 24 February 2004 - 07:49 AM

Originally posted by Tolerance02
Those engines are non interference so even if the belt should breake there is no further damage.



Some are, some aren't. Timing belt failure is never a good thing.

Originally posted by Tolerance02
For a experianced mechanic who has the right tools it's not that much work to remove the T belt if necessary.


Agreed. It's even less work to replace the water pump the first time.

#18 Reason01

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Posted 24 February 2004 - 09:10 AM

Well when I was having a over heating problem, I was hoping that it wasnt my head gaskets. So we tried replacing the thermostat, flushed out the radiator. Then I thought it might be the water pump, so i got the water pump out, and it wasnt bad but it didnt spin as easy as the new pump I got. Maybe the bearing where going, this was at 70,000 miles. Im the type that will replacing anything old for something new on my cars, always had. Dealerships suck, they tell you things you dont need to know, and they dont tell you what you want to know. It should have been replaced, but they look at it that you have to come back and spend some more money to take the front end of the engine apart, thats my opinion. Well good luck with your car, oh yea, it was my head gasket ;)

#19 ejlain

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Posted 24 February 2004 - 11:30 AM

Hi. Just out of curiosity...For those of you who went to a dealer or a mechanic...What did you pay for timing belt/water pump/tensioner/seals package? Did you also get thermostat and upper and lower radiator hoses? I'm in PA, so just trying to get a feel for best package/price deal.

Thanks. for the info.

- Ed

#20 Tolerance02

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Posted 24 February 2004 - 03:29 PM

Originally posted by Reason01
Well when I was having a over heating problem, I was hoping that it wasnt my head gaskets. So we tried replacing the thermostat, flushed out the radiator. Then I thought it might be the water pump, so i got the water pump out, and it wasnt bad but it didnt spin as easy as the new pump I got. Maybe the bearing where going, this was at 70,000 miles. Im the type that will replacing anything old for something new on my cars, always had. Dealerships suck, they tell you things you dont need to know, and they dont tell you what you want to know. It should have been replaced, but they look at it that you have to come back and spend some more money to take the front end of the engine apart, thats my opinion. Well good luck with your car, oh yea, it was my head gasket ;)



Reason01

You were hoping it wasnt the head gasket but after all it was?
So you didnt have to replace the thermostat, you didnt have to flush out the radiator and you didnt have to replace the water pump. All wasted time and money.
The old pump didnt spin as easy as the new one? Well in my opinion this means that the old pump was better than the new pump!!! The resistance in spinning is because of the pressure of the seal against the surface of the propellor, which was higher in the old pump.
So the new pump shouldnt spin as easy as the old one.

"Dealerships suck". Well this is the best example of generalizing i've ever heared. I know there are a lot of dishonest people in car service but that doze'nt mean they are all the same.

If they dont replace a good part it's because they want you to come back and make more money out of it. If they replace a part that didnt have to be replaced it's because they are after your money to.

Sigh, it's hard to be a honest mechanic.

Urban.

#21 4FOR4

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Posted 24 February 2004 - 04:21 PM

Ejlain: On my '98 OBW
Just had a shop do, head gaskets, a couple idler pulleys ($120 a piece), thermostat, T belt, water pump (I may be forgetting something) all for $2100. That includes a lot of screwing around because they didn't believe the head gasket was a problem so there are probably more hours in there than necessary. It was part of some collision repair work so insurance paid for majority.

One comment the mechanic made was that he was totally blown away at how good the 2.5 looked after 133,000. So although there is that head gasket thing, they are better than most.

#22 viceversa

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Posted 24 February 2004 - 07:49 PM

ON some cars, the water pump is a part of the "tune up".

I don't replace it until it breaks.

I have never had a "new" generation, just a Loyale with 170K miles which never had a failure. Had a Chebby which made it to 155K miles - no failure. I had an old Dodge where it failed after 25 years and 145K miles - was an easy swap.

BUT, if they are replacing other parts near it, makes sense to swap it at the same time.

#23 Chip Hedrick

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Posted 24 February 2004 - 10:16 PM

In late January, I brought my '98 OBW to an independent Subaru mechanic (25 yrs experience with Subaru) to address oil seal leakage and replace the t-belt.

We almost got into a shouting match over whether the water pump should be replaced. I wanted it replaced. He said it would be a waste of money, that Subaru water pumps typically last 100,000s of miles, that he's only encountered a handful of bad ones over the years, and that the bad ones typically give some indication (including discoloration on the sprocket) that they are on the way out.

We agreed that he would carefully inspect the water pump and replace it if it appeared at all questionable. In the end, he said it looked fine and did not replace it.

You can rest assured that I'll let you know if that water pump fails before my next t-belt change.

#24 richierich

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Posted 25 February 2004 - 02:10 AM

Tolerance02, what is your address so I can start shipping you the waterpumps that I get in with bad bearings? What about the ones I get that have under 100k on them and show signs of leaking, can I send those postage due? (j/k) But the fact of the matter is that just because you haven't seen it, doesn't mean it doesn't happen.


But the fact of the matter is that, when I customer request to change the waterpump at 60k I say that it is not necessary. But if they say that want to do it, I won't argue with them.

I would rather do a timing belt job without a waterpump also, a lot less messy.

#25 Tolerance02

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Posted 25 February 2004 - 05:16 PM

Richierich.

Are you talking about waterpumps Legacy or waterpumps in general?
I can assure you i never had one legacy water pump with bad bearing. The few i had to replace was because of leaking but no free play on the shaft and nothing wrong with the bearing.
And as i said before i have a lot of customers Legacy owners since end 1989. And yes i saw a lot of pumps wit bad bearings from different makes of cars but not from Legacy.

"Showing sings of leaking" Yes i agree, but did you ever check a new pump after a few months? Very often you will find out that they also are showing sings of leaking, and you should know that this dozen't always mean they are bad.

Mabe there are certain (climatic?) circumstances which may explain why you have more problems with water pumps but in my experiance i see no reason to replace a good pump just because i change the T belt.

Urban.




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