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front wheel knocking and grinding


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24 replies to this topic

#1 czaray

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Posted 26 July 2011 - 08:21 PM

Hello, I have a 1993 Subaru Loyale which makes a knocking sound in the front when accelerator is pressed. It knocks going left, right, or straight. Also, there is a rythmic grinding sound as the driver wheel turns while driving slowly.
I checked the brakes. The pads and the rotors look fine. I have in the past had to tighten the axle nut on both sides which I did not tighten properly when previously replacing the cv axle assembly which I purchased from a salvage yard. So, with all that said I am trying to figure out what is causing the knocking sound while accelerating, and the grinding which happens whether accelerating or coasting. CV joints? Axles? Bearing?, or ...?

#2 92_rugby_subie

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Posted 26 July 2011 - 09:25 PM

the knocking sounds like what happens on my car...

Lift up the front end and grab both sides of the tire and wiggle it... does it move side to side a lot? Also while its on the ground try and shake the wheel and see if you hear a clunking..

If you do, this could be tie-rods like mine is.

While the car is in the air, turn the wheels, does it feel like the pad is grinding/sticking while its moving forward?

If not and the noise continues, theres a chance its wheel bearings.. but those dont really grind in my experience... they squeal...

How many miles on the car?

#3 czaray

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Posted 26 July 2011 - 10:11 PM

Hi, tried all those. No clunking, or movement from side to side, but there does seem to be sticking with a grinding sound when I rotate the drivers wheel.
245,000 km's on the car.

#4 GeneralDisorder

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Posted 26 July 2011 - 10:15 PM

The "rythmic grinding" is definitely a wheel bearing by your description.

You also need to replace your cone washers - they have been damaged by driving with the axle nuts loose.

GD

#5 The FNG

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Posted 26 July 2011 - 10:28 PM

http://www.ultimates...ead.php?t=77491

This is a life saver. I just did mine this weekend for about $45. It is easier than it might seem to replace your bearings.

#6 czaray

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Posted 26 July 2011 - 11:39 PM

Thank you for all the replies

#7 czaray

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Posted 28 July 2011 - 09:23 PM

http://www.ultimates...ead.php?t=77491

This is a life saver. I just did mine this weekend for about $45. It is easier than it might seem to replace your bearings.

I went to the parts store today and they told me there are two bearing per side, But I can't seem to make any discernment on the pics from the link if there are two bearings. Are there two bearings?:-\

#8 GeneralDisorder

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Posted 28 July 2011 - 09:28 PM

Don't go to a parts store - go to a bearing supplier.

Get 2 (two) 6207-2RS-C3 bearings. Yes there are two per knuckle. You should pay about $8 to $12 each for them at a bearing supplier vs. $25 each or so at an auto parts store. These are standard 6k series ball bearings and you can get them anywhere.

You will want to go to the parts store for the seals. But those are cheap.

GD

#9 The FNG

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Posted 29 July 2011 - 08:07 AM

Actually, both Napa and Car Quest had their lower grade bearings for $15 each which is unbelievably cheaper than RockAuto.com by almost $5 per bearing not including shipping. And yes, there are 2 bearings per wheel. I thought about going to a bearing supplier like GD recommended, but for sake of time and convenience, I paid a little extra for a little less quality bearing and just picked them up at Napa. From Napa, 2 bearings at $15 and change plus one outer seal and one inner seal at $6.50 each and a tub of grease at $5, you are looking at near $45 per wheel you do bearings on.

In all honesty, do it yourself in a couple of hours. The first time is always a learning curve. My rig has 2" strut lifts that the PO welded on which threw a major curve ball for me when it came to reinstalling the ball joint and I had to go buy a strut tool to compress it 2". Oh, and don't go light on the grease either. The bearings that I pulled out were definitely lacking in the lube department and I thing that was the cause of catastrophic failure. My cage exploded and my race shattered in half. I am certain it was due to improper installation and low grease which helps to remove heat from the system also.

One last tip: A 1" or so wooden dowel works amazing to get the bearings out of the knuckle. I pounded for a good amount of time with various objects before I discovered this. Also, clean one of the old bearings out (very clean) and use that to install the new ones instead of buying expensive bearing installer equipment.

Good Luck!

#10 GeneralDisorder

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Posted 29 July 2011 - 08:43 AM

Yes - Napa probably does have a cheap Taiwan-made bearing for $15 - but it will be a plain 6207. It will not be a 6207-2RS-C3. The "-2RS" calls out a double-sealed bearing which will be pre-greased and sealed for life. The "-C3" component calls for an electric motor bearing internal clearance spec. If you simply go to a bearing supplier you will get 5 times the bearing (Japanese or US made) for the same money. You will also save on grease and mess as you need only apply a light grease to the new wheel seals, etc - since the 2RS bearings come pre-greased and sealed. This also provides further protection from the elements.

If you really want to never do wheel bearings again - get yourself a set of 7207's and set it up for axial thrust loading. Though you may have to play with shims on the inner race pre-load spacer to get it right. I found that a .001" shim ring on the spacer brought my hub temps right down where I wanted them after a test drive.

As far as greasing if you use open bearings - pack each bearing completely full and fill the chamber around the spacer about 1/3. Ideally you want about 1/3 of the chamber filled with grease when it heats up and flows. Too much grease is a bad thing as it doesn't allow for expansion. 1/3 chamber capacity is the standard for bearing greaseing.

GD

Edited by GeneralDisorder, 29 July 2011 - 08:47 AM.


#11 robm

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Posted 29 July 2011 - 04:40 PM

Canadian prices are a little higher. NAPA runs about $45 the pair, not sure what grade, but plain unsealed, and Kaman Bearing about $20 each for the good ones, with built-in seals and grease. They were stock at Kaman, even out here in the woods.

It is lots easier than I thought to do them.

#12 czaray

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Posted 03 August 2011 - 05:20 PM

So I changed the front wheel bearings. I think the grinding noise is from the caliper as it does not sit flat on the brake pad and it was a tight fit to get it back on after installing bearings. But there is still a knocking coming from the front when I push the accelerator pedal. Could this be the cv's, axle, or possibly the transmission which is a standard?

#13 92_rugby_subie

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Posted 03 August 2011 - 05:53 PM

Might need to go to the junkyard and pull off two good looking calipers...

Definitely sounds like a sticking caliper now that you have replaced the bearings (which isnt money wasted, you wont regret it)

There are rebuild kits, but honestly, I have heard it wasnt worth it since they hardly fail.

How does your brake fluid look? Check that, and if its a gross brown color, means some moisture got in the line and is rusting, which can cause the sticking/uneven caliper. Follow the directions in a haynes manual (I have one if youd like the bleeding order/directions in word form or something.)

I bled my brakes and got a whole jar of gross brown fluid, I just bled each wheel until I got clear fluid out and I have no sticking caliper issues.

#14 czaray

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Posted 04 August 2011 - 12:52 AM

Yes, it is brown. The brake lines were replaced last winter by the local mechanic because they blew when he was testing the car with hard braking. I guess there is still some rust or moisture moving around. Could the sticky caliper be causing the knocking sound with acceleration as well, or is that a whole other bag of worms?
No I don't have a Haynes manual. That would be cool if you don't mind doing that.

I wonder if I'm:horse:

#15 92_rugby_subie

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Posted 04 August 2011 - 01:44 AM

First, the caliper thats sticking, back it off a little bit (should be a turn style piston) if it will not back off/turn then it may be very stuck and need to be replaced before you can bleed the brakes efficiently. *usually a junkyard replacement is fine... Ive heard these rarely fail with proper maintenance/bleeding*
Here is my old thread so you can see we kinda had the same issue:
http://www.ultimates...ad.php?t=122330


I can get the exact instructions from the book... but the quickest way is to get it up on jackstands (if you can, all four tires off the ground, if not, you can do it wheel by wheel, it just might be more of a pain)

Make sure you have extra brake fluid... I did all four so I used the big container of DOT-3 and had like, half an inch left in the bottle :eek: before it came out clear through each line.

Your assistant will be operating the brake pedal. I used quick terms like "down and up" and "off and on" to signal when the brake pedal should be pressed or not.

Brake bleed order (according to repair manual)
RR - Right Rear
LF - Left Front
LR - Left Rear
RF - Right Front

Use a small hose to put onto the end of the bleeder screw and then the other end into a jar (the clearer the hose, the better, so you can see when clear liquid comes out)

Use a turkey baster and get as much of the old fluid out of the Master Cylinder as possible and refill it with the clean DOT-3 fluid. Clean the cap and put it back on.

Then go to the Right Rear wheel (where you start). Have the right tool for the bleeder screw (might be a 6 or 8 mm I cant remember) and yell up to your assistant "DOWN" (or whatever word you use) and have them hold the pedal to the floor. Loosen the screw and the fluid will shoot into the tube/hose and down into the container, it will probably be pretty gross. Tighten the screw (not too tight, dont break it, but just snug) and THEN have your assistant let up on the brake pedal. Do this a few times, then check your brake fluid level (DO NOT LET THAT MASTER CYLINDER EMPTY ITSELF, KEEP IT FULL - You may have to collapse the little air bag it makes sometimes when it empties itself beyond a certain level)

Now that Ive said it in detail above:
Repeat the steps:
Brake pedal held down
Open bleeder screw
Let fluid drain/shoot into tube
Close screw
Lift pedal back up
Brake pedal held down
(and so on and so on) until the brake fluid comes out clear.

After the fluid is all clear take it for a test run (with new fluid in the reservoir I hope) see how it feels.

If I left anything out, please let me know! :)
Best of luck! :banana:

Edited by 92_rugby_subie, 04 August 2011 - 01:49 AM.


#16 92_rugby_subie

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Posted 04 August 2011 - 01:54 AM

And the knocking... Im stumped on it to be honest... My car does it sometimes and I think its because of the tie-rods (which we found out by lifting the front end and being able to shake the wheel a lot :eek: ) and those will be replaced next week, so we will see if that solves my issue.

#17 czaray

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Posted 04 August 2011 - 12:43 PM

Thanks, I'll try that and let you know how it goes. Good luck with the tie rod ends.

#18 Subruise

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Posted 04 August 2011 - 02:00 PM

also check you hubs to make sure this isnt the issue. denial didnt help me as one of them was stripped more in one spot than the rest. initially i thought it was ok, then i had to take it a part and fix it right. no harm in fixing everything tho.

RV

#19 czaray

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Posted 05 August 2011 - 02:57 AM

That would be great if it was only the hub:headbang: (Man, whoever made these smiley faces must have been on crack.) I looked at the splines when I took the hubs off, but maybe I should look a little closer when I mess with the brakes. BTW, how hard is it to change out the clutch and pressure plate in these Subaru's?

#20 Petersubaru

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Posted 31 July 2012 - 10:52 PM

Yes - Napa probably does have a cheap Taiwan-made bearing for $15 - but it will be a plain 6207. It will not be a 6207-2RS-C3. The "-2RS" calls out a double-sealed bearing which will be pre-greased and sealed for life. The "-C3" component calls for an electric motor bearing internal clearance spec. If you simply go to a bearing supplier you will get 5 times the bearing (Japanese or US made) for the same money. You will also save on grease and mess as you need only apply a light grease to the new wheel seals, etc - since the 2RS bearings come pre-greased and sealed. This also provides further protection from the elements.

If you really want to never do wheel bearings again - get yourself a set of 7207's and set it up for axial thrust loading. Though you may have to play with shims on the inner race pre-load spacer to get it right. I found that a .001" shim ring on the spacer brought my hub temps right down where I wanted them after a test drive.

As far as greasing if you use open bearings - pack each bearing completely full and fill the chamber around the spacer about 1/3. Ideally you want about 1/3 of the chamber filled with grease when it heats up and flows. Too much grease is a bad thing as it doesn't allow for expansion. 1/3 chamber capacity is the standard for bearing greaseing.

GD

..GD ..could you tell me where to get those shim rings that you described above..

#21 GeneralDisorder

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Posted 01 August 2012 - 12:14 AM

McMaster-Carr.

GD

#22 NickNakorn

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Posted 25 April 2013 - 05:49 AM

Very useful info concerning the choice of bearing available from GD; thanks. Question; do you know if those part numbers/spec codes are international and the same across all manufacturers?

best wishes all

Nick



#23 kanurys

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Posted 25 April 2013 - 09:39 AM

I picked these up on ebay. They're made in China, but a decent brand which I've run on machinery before. USA Bearing and Belt sells them, too. I didn't use the shims, obviously by my bearing choice. It's so easy to replace them on EA82's that I won't worry about it.

 

Finding shims on McMaster Carr is a fun time. Sometimes their website is very useful and sometimes you can totally get lost in it and not find your parts.

 

IMG_20130406_124619.jpg


Edited by kanurys, 25 April 2013 - 09:56 AM.


#24 Sonicfrog

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Posted 28 May 2013 - 09:32 AM

I've got to do this on Murphy, the $500 1987 turbo Wagon. 

Am I correct that if I use the sealed bearings, i don't kneed to use the shim / spacer that floats around in the middle between the two bearings?  Or am i confusing one shim with another?



#25 ivans imports

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Posted 28 May 2013 - 09:35 AM

use shim keeps the berrings spaced properly






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