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Panning for metals... In the oil


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51 replies to this topic

#1 86 Wonder Wedge

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Posted 30 October 2012 - 03:47 PM

So, I did my 3k mile oil change today with the 5w30 gtx hi mile and purolator pureone filter and it looked darker (not terrible) but when I went to pour into container, it looked like a pan full of gold flakes.. Like a tard, I didn't run a magnet over it to see if it was ferrous, but I'm going to cut the filter open to see what's gong on.. I hadn't noticed this last time, or if it's still remnants of the low oil pressure from the P.O.

10k miles ago, it had some seriously low oil pressure, but a new seal and shimmed oil relief valve has fantastic pressure, but it hits close to 70? On the gauge, new sender too, when cold. It drops when the oil warms up, but am I washing out the bearings when it's cold? Or what else could it be? The flakes could be silver-colored, but they seemed to be more gold/brass colored... Wish I had grabbed an oil sample for blackstone...
Ideas? Where else can gold colored flakes come from besides valve guides?

#2 scoobiedubie

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Posted 30 October 2012 - 06:38 PM

Both aluminum and brass are not magnetic. Valves, rings, pistons, crankshaft and bearings are steel. Cylinder heads are aluminum. Valve guides are plastic which may be gold in color.

#3 86 Wonder Wedge

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Posted 30 October 2012 - 09:59 PM

Yeah, I wanted to try and establish what was in my oil (either steel/iron or not), but it's guessing until I bust into the filter...

And the valve guides are plastic? I find that hard to believe... brass/bronze sure, but... :/ and are the bearings tri-metal or aluminum coated steel?

#4 1 Lucky Texan

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Posted 30 October 2012 - 10:52 PM

blackstone might still be able to do something with your filter.

call or email to find out

regardless, it sounds bad - like something too dense to get carried to the filter settled to the bottom of the pan.

Edited by 1 Lucky Texan, 31 October 2012 - 07:25 AM.


#5 ShawnW

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Posted 30 October 2012 - 10:55 PM

Both aluminum and brass are not magnetic. Valves, rings, pistons, crankshaft and bearings are steel. Cylinder heads are aluminum. Valve guides are plastic which may be gold in color.


Valve guides are not plastic they are steel.

#6 Quidam

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Posted 31 October 2012 - 09:25 AM

Is you motor making any unusual noise right now? What you find in the oil filter went through the oil pump first. Cut it and see.

I install a magnetic drain plug in every car I drive that didn't come from the factory with one. The one in my EA 82 now I took from a scrapped 3AT front diff. Cheap insurance, even if you buy a new one.

What you could do is slap an external magnet on the bottom of the oil pan and pull it off when you pull the plug next oil change.

I know it's colder up there right now but I'm thinking a 5W(winter)30 is too thin for your engine.

Subaru did use copper in bearings back then. 70 psi cold is what I see with 20W50 in mine, and it has the correct oil pressure when warm.

Run it a thousand miles or whatever and change the oil again?

But is it noisy right now?

hth

Doug

#7 86 Wonder Wedge

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Posted 31 October 2012 - 11:08 AM

No, no unusual noises right now... starts strong, pulls well, and the oil press never dips below 25 or so...

I thought 5W30 is what the car called for in the book (especially with the cold weather)? 10W30 might not pump through the pump or cavitate when cold... I was thinking of even trying a 0W30 if it could be found in conventional (since I dont want to spring any leaks swapping over to synthetic) or the BMW's 0W-40 so its thin when super cold and still thick when it warms up..

But ill look at the filter today.. and call blackstone

BTW the motor has 124K now, clean as a whistle and no signs of sludge in the oil fill tube nor residue in the PCV system, so I'm leaning towards NOT rings/guides/pistons/valves...

#8 opus

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Posted 31 October 2012 - 01:35 PM

I 2nd the Blackstone thing. I use them quite often, WELL worth the $25.

#9 Quidam

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Posted 31 October 2012 - 04:53 PM

I'm looking at the owners manual for a '92 Loyale and it says: CAUTION: SAE 5W 30 is not recommended for sustained high speed driving.

Temp range for that oil is 30* F. and below.

It also recommends 10W30 or 10W40 otherwise. I work my Subaru hard and 20W50 is what I run summer. It's not "that" cold here yet and I plan to change it to 10 or 15W 40 soon.

It's a good sign she's not making noise. Keep us posted eh?

Doug

#10 86 Wonder Wedge

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Posted 01 November 2012 - 11:30 AM

Well, got the filter sliced last night, but no indepth look yet...

But I got to thinking and looking at a new oil, and remembering the faf I went through in finding a good oil for my Turbo T/A (conventional AND high ZDDP) I figured this motor (EA82) would do well with a high zinc oil since it has essentially "flat tappets" and no low-friction coatings, couldn't hurt. However, the oil I used, Rotella T Diesel spec 10W30, I bought up the last of it around me.. :P

So now I'm looking at options such as Mobil 1 HM, Amsoil High Zinc, Rotella T and T5 (gas engine spec) but they are mostly snythetic and the Amsoil runs $11/qt locally! :dead:

BUT! I then remembered the Valvoline VR1 line of "racing oils"! Conventional with super high zinc and avail in 10W30, 10W40 and 20W50! and it runs about $4.80/qt!

I'll grab some later today and send off a VOA (virgin oil analysis) and a 3K UOA to see how it's doing. AND i'll pull out my shim in the oil relief spring to bring the pressure down with using a thicker oil.

#11 opus

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Posted 01 November 2012 - 11:51 AM

Gee...I would just get some generic oil instead of something funky.

#12 86 Wonder Wedge

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Posted 01 November 2012 - 07:41 PM

Now where's the fun (and longevity) in that? :clap:

Well, O'Reilly's said they had the 10W30 VR1 on the shelf, but what they really had was the Synthetic 10W30 VR1... awesome.

Anyway, I didn't want to wait 3-4 days and the synthetic was on sale, 4.99/qt. If it springs a leak, oh well. I'll fix it.

BUT the prospects of 5-6K mile intervals would be nice, AND having a motor that will last 300K miles is pretty cool.

#13 opus

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Posted 01 November 2012 - 08:22 PM

Head over to bobistheoilguy.com and check out the forums, just for educational purposes.

#14 86 Wonder Wedge

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Posted 02 November 2012 - 12:05 AM

Gotta love bobistheoilguy! Been reading back and forth about some people's usage of VR1..

Granted, this is probably overkill with the synthetic, but I am curious to see how it works in this motor and how the motor treats its oil (beats up on it, dumps its problems into it, calls it bad names..)

#15 Loyale 2.7 Turbo

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Posted 02 November 2012 - 12:09 AM

I'm looking at the owners manual for a '92 Loyale and it says: CAUTION: SAE 5W 30 is not recommended for sustained high speed driving. ...


I Agree... I really Believe that the 5W~30 is very Thin oil for those old Subie Engines; I've run my "BumbleBeast" with 20W~50 for Decades (Literally) without any oil issue.

You can Read
~► Here an much better explanation on Motor Oils.

Kind Regards.


#16 Quidam

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Posted 02 November 2012 - 09:54 AM

Just some thoughts. That shim in your oil pump may not be a bad thing even with the slightly thicker oil. And a high ZDDP oil is what these engines need.

The ZDDP is attracted to metal and stays there even when the oil drains off. Cold start ups is where this comes in to play...and anything lower than about 160* F is "cold" to an engine.

Cars with a three way cat call for lower ZDDP because ZDDP has that attraction to metal, it's also attracted to the metals in the cats and it's not good for an expensive three way.

Reference pressure with 10W30 from a '90 XT FSM.

2,000 rpm 30-44 psi.
4,000 rpm 51-64 psi

At 550 rpm you should see 14psi.

Now, the Oil relief valve, pressure at which valve starts to open, @ 5,000 rpm it's listed at 57-64 psi.

Keep that 64psi figure in mind with a factory 6,500 rpm redline. I'm on a quest to have 70psi @ 7,000 rpm.

I haven't driven the Loyale in a week and yesterday I started it up, about 40* F temp. After it came to life and ran for a bit I reved it to about 3000 rpm and saw 80psi on the gage.

Fully warm on the way home I took off in first and shifted at 7,000 rpm, engine running clean. Too busy to look at the oil pressure:) Wound it out to 6,500 rpm in second where I had 45psi. I had 50psi at about 5,000 rpm. With more load the pressure dropped.

I'm going to try 15W40, stretch the springs in the cam cases, and possibly shim the relief spring in the pump. I need to know what it takes for 10 psi per 1000 rpm.

Oh, this is a '87 GL SPFI engine with 170,XXX miles on it. About a thousand miles on it since swapping it in with two oil changes to flush it out. It's got 20W50 Wall Mart in it right now and doesn't make a peep engine noise wise.

I'm pretty sure that I'll be shimming that spring.

Doug

#17 86 Wonder Wedge

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Posted 03 November 2012 - 09:09 PM

Good info Doug, and I've never seen those oil pressure numbers before! :o

Ok, I made my final decision. I went with the Castrol GTX Diesel 15W-40 since it was still SL/SJ spec on the bottle (no mention ANYWHERE of the SM/SN spec.. :D ) and I know conventional GTX is good stock and the SL/SJ spec will have more than normal zinc due to the old specs.

So far, so good... no noises or leaks and the oil pressure is about the same from start up to operating temp.

And when I shimmed the oil pump, I used a flat M8 or M6 washer (can't remember, but one fits PERFECTLY while the other is too small/large) inside the piston under the spring, not the screw cap.

#18 RXJ

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Posted 24 November 2012 - 11:31 AM

I'm going to try 15W40, stretch the springs in the cam cases, and possibly shim the relief spring in the pump. I need to know what it takes for 10 psi per 1000 rpm.
Doug


...is the relief spring in the pump a candidate for stretching also?... just curious about the shim for one but not the others or stretching vs shimming

#19 92LoyaleH4

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Posted 24 November 2012 - 01:43 PM

I'm looking at the owners manual for a '92 Loyale and it says: CAUTION: SAE 5W 30 is not recommended for sustained high speed driving.

Temp range for that oil is 30* F. and below.

It also recommends 10W30 or 10W40 otherwise. I work my Subaru hard and 20W50 is what I run summer. It's not "that" cold here yet and I plan to change it to 10 or 15W 40 soon.

It's a good sign she's not making noise. Keep us posted eh?

Doug


Very true, this is what came to mind first..For a high revving motor 5w30 is too thin...I will run 10w30 in winter even tho i don't drive it in winter..but colder temps and the engine makes noise...I did run 15w50...(I only run mobil one btw) I think 10w40 is the way to go...but when it was hot out the 15w50 was the only one that didnt suffer high temp oil pressure problems.

#20 86 Wonder Wedge

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 03:35 AM

Just a brief update, but after the colder temps have arrived, I found that the 15w40 gtx is too thick when cold. Lifters start ticking away when cold..

So I've switched again! Hopefully the last time..

Mobil 1 5w-40 Turbo Diesel Truck (TDT). Its got the cold flow and thickness at temp plus >1000 ppm of zinc!

I've got about 300 miles in it so far, no new leaks, no more lifter noise, still as smooth as the 15w40 but feels a bit peppier.. and Mobil 1 routinely comes on sale around here, so yay!

Also, I picked up the Wix filters that came with the deal (51361) but THEY DO NOT FIT. I have been running Purolator PureOne filter PL24457 with zero probblems and the seal diameter on the Wix is about 1/8" smaller on the O.D than the purolator is on the I.D. I was shocked..but it leaks, even without pressure applied. Shame.. :(

#21 92LoyaleH4

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 08:59 AM

Just a brief update, but after the colder temps have arrived, I found that the 15w40 gtx is too thick when cold. Lifters start ticking away when cold..

So I've switched again! Hopefully the last time..

Mobil 1 5w-40 Turbo Diesel Truck (TDT). Its got the cold flow and thickness at temp plus >1000 ppm of zinc!

I've got about 300 miles in it so far, no new leaks, no more lifter noise, still as smooth as the 15w40 but feels a bit peppier.. and Mobil 1 routinely comes on sale around here, so yay!

Also, I picked up the Wix filters that came with the deal (51361) but THEY DO NOT FIT. I have been running Purolator PureOne filter PL24457 with zero probblems and the seal diameter on the Wix is about 1/8" smaller on the O.D than the purolator is on the I.D. I was shocked..but it leaks, even without pressure applied. Shame.. :(


I really think the 40w is too heavy, but being both our motors could be in different shape its hard to determine which is right...I thought even if its a synthetic it would flow better but i was wrong. The car would have lifter noise no matter what until i finally tested something and basically drove it hard to warm it up and it went away...I had 10w40 or 15w50 in it...(again both mobil 1 synthetic)..After that i went with 10w30 and havent looked back...I just always let my car run for a few minutes. Mobil also makes an oil filter for it and from what i've read theyre one of the best....Part No. M1-208


This raises the question tho if 5w30 is better for the cold temps. I'm thinking about changing it one more time for the winter really hits. Any thoughts?

#22 86 Wonder Wedge

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 09:50 AM

From everything I'm reading (and I'm no oil expert) it's the 30 that gets too thin when it gets hot (cause the 30 has a thinner viscosity at a certain temp than a 40 does). The book/owners manual even has the same oil ranges for 10w30 and 10w40. I think subaru was worried about the oil thinning or bearing washout at higher RPMs (or even the oil cavatating since the pump may "suck" air bubbles into a more water-like fluid)

However, I went to a 5w40 to have the best of both worlds. Granted, I also hear the wide spread oils (thin when cold, thick when hot) also have a shorter life span, but again the OM suggested a 7500 mile OCI even on standard 10w30! :eek:

Honestly, I'd stick with a 10w40 or even a 5w40 for the winter.. this motor doesn't necessarily run too hot and if you've got large bearing clearances or lazy oil pressure springs/valves, it might take the thicker stuff at cold to get to the heads (or even cams.. remember those things don't have bearings! :eek: )

After 3K, I'm going to dump and save this M1 TDT stuff, have blackstone take a look, and if they say it's still good, then back in it goes (with a new filter of course)

#23 92LoyaleH4

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 10:49 AM

I will agree in the warmer temps a heavy oil is a must! 15w50 was the only one that didn't lose oil pressure at highway speeds when it was hot out. These motors (EA82 & similar) are very temperamental in the sense that you really have to..or should..take care to have the right oil in at different times of the year.

#24 88wacaroo

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 05:42 PM

I will agree in the warmer temps a heavy oil is a must! 15w50 was the only one that didn't lose oil pressure at highway speeds when it was hot out. These motors (EA82 & similar) are very temperamental in the sense that you really have to..or should..take care to have the right oil in at different times of the year.

Well it"s been awhile since i"ve heard about oils. All this new stuff all runs on 5-30 stuff,o8 ranger 4.0 had 5-30 in it since new,I got it and put 10-40 in it [it had ticks when started cold. Put 10-40 in it and nothing since. Commute trk. now [moving so 650.mi.round trip every 2 days:banghead: talk tired... Anyway my old subs ea81 I run 20-50 sum. and when real cold -10/+30 still run 10-40. I have 81 ea81 w/377,000mi. Weber, gets Flogged, hauls dirt bikes and still holds 55-60@2-5000rpm and hot idle 900@30 with walmart oil changing 25-3000mi. Looks like I just changed it:D Did I mention flog?

#25 zukiru

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 08:12 PM

I'm running valvoline 5-30 maxlife.
everything seems good with that. sometimes when the car is good and warmed up I get a fairly low oil pressure reading but I think it's within spec.




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