vtwinjunkie Posted July 7, 2016 Share Posted July 7, 2016 (edited) Edit....It is not actually leaking! Crazy false alarm. Well, I havent pulled it apart yet, but I assume that I have a leaking cam seal or two. 2005 2.5i outback I have gotten in the habit of looking up under the car with every few fill ups to monitor oil leaks (My head gaskets are still pretty dry with 102k miles on the car/ never replaced). Today I noticed a drop of oil forming at the timing belt cover where it meets the thermostat. Trying to remember whats behind it (aside from looking at a service manual) I assume its a leaking cam seal. Sound right? How many of you have had this happen? Do you always replace with timing belt jobs? this is my first older subi so I was not aware this was/could be an issue. Diddnt see any sign of a leak during my timing belt job 5k miles ago but I have been running 5w30 full synthetic in it since purchased. (I think PO ran synthetic). Perhaps switching to a slightly thicker grade of oil could prolong the leak a bit? I am not in any hurry to tear this down again haha. Edited July 9, 2016 by vtwinjunkie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fgf Posted July 7, 2016 Share Posted July 7, 2016 Don't know about '05, but my '96 2.2L SOHC needed a couple new camshaft O-rings - one at the back that I did when I had the trany split from the engine and the other this week at the front while doing the timing belt. Little thin O-rings, maybe 1/16" thick and around 2" OD. Probably were original and had the gotten baked to the consistency of uncooked spaghetti - hard and brittle. Slow leaks in both cases, not gushers, but enough to cause drips and, in the case of the front one, swell and soften some dust gaskets. In that engine there are "camshaft supports" at both ends of each camshaft which seal to the head with that O-ring. The front supports also have seals where the camshaft passes through on its way to the sprocket; while I had the support out I replaced the seal even though there wasn't evidence of it leaking. Also had a camshaft seal blow in my 98 2.5L - that was a major leak... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fairtax4me Posted July 7, 2016 Share Posted July 7, 2016 Toward the outside of the engine or more toward the center of the engine? You better be in a hurry to fix that leak if its from behind the timing cover. If that seal blows out completely you may lose all of the oil in the engine before you even know it. When the oil light turns on, oil pressure is under 5 psi, the engine is Out of oil and the oil pump is pumping air at that point. Pressure that low at 2,500 rpm cruising down the highway, bearings will be toast before you can shut the engine off. Not to mention oil on that new timing belt will ruin it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
forester2002s Posted July 7, 2016 Share Posted July 7, 2016 If it's leaking at the bottom of the timing-belt cover, then it's most likely coming from the front-crankshaft seal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
987687 Posted July 7, 2016 Share Posted July 7, 2016 I don't think of 05 as old.... heh. Anyway, I made the mistake of doing a timing job without replacing the crank and cam seals on my car. About a year later after a slight oil leak from the timing cover, the front main seal had a catastrophic failure. I caught it because it was leaking SO much oil it was smoking off the exhaust and leaving a smoke screen behind me, when I stopped there was oil dripping off the rear bumper. The other thing about leaks in the timing cover is that oil is bad for the timing belt, it will soften the belt and significantly shorten its life. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
heartless Posted July 7, 2016 Share Posted July 7, 2016 Do you always replace [seals] with timing belt jobs? short answer - yes. it is worth doing while you are in there to prevent needing to go back in later. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Numbchux Posted July 7, 2016 Share Posted July 7, 2016 Never. No, it is not common. We do not ever replace cam seals preventatively unless it is expressly requested by the customer. A few of the techs do crank seals, but not usually. Take a look at the crank seal, if it's black, it's probably the culprit. They superceded them to brown ones about that time which were muuuuch better Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikec03 Posted July 7, 2016 Share Posted July 7, 2016 I must admit that I haven't always done it, due to laziness. But it's a good idea to do it. Tips:Loosen the bolts for the cam pulleys before you take off the timing belt. Tighten the bolt using part of the old belt to wrap the pulley and a chain wrench to hold the pulley stationary. The following Lisle tool really makes it easy to get the seal out. Don't push the front edge of the seal in beyond the face of the motor because you could plug the oil return [ look at the position of the old one before removing it]. http://www.lislecorp.com/divisions/products/?product=365 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
golucky66 Posted July 7, 2016 Share Posted July 7, 2016 Coming from a automotive shop, and having done a few timing belt jobs on Subarus, I don't see why you would ever not replace all the seals. Its an extra $20 in parts (customer price) and maybe .4 hours labor. Is it worth risking? It starts leaking 10k later, now you have to remove the entire timing belt job you JUST did to replace them. I always replace them when I open it up. But either way, my dads car 99' OBW 2.5 DOHC has had a leaking crankseal for at least 20k, just slowly getting worse, no blow out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vtwinjunkie Posted July 7, 2016 Author Share Posted July 7, 2016 Looks like I am going to pull it apart this weekend and see whats going on. I would hate to have it ruin the timing belt I JUST put on haha. Besides, I have another big road trip coming up next month, so I need to make sure everything is tip top. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vtwinjunkie Posted July 7, 2016 Author Share Posted July 7, 2016 (edited) Toward the outside of the engine or more toward the center of the engine? You better be in a hurry to fix that leak if its from behind the timing cover. If that seal blows out completely you may lose all of the oil in the engine before you even know it. When the oil light turns on, oil pressure is under 5 psi, the engine is Out of oil and the oil pump is pumping air at that point. Pressure that low at 2,500 rpm cruising down the highway, bearings will be toast before you can shut the engine off. Not to mention oil on that new timing belt will ruin it. Not sure If I understand you, but as I mentioned, It is one drop where the timing cover meets the thermostat. So to answer you, I assume that is towards the front? Since reading your post I have parked the car and am now driving my other car. I would hate to ruin it over a cheap seal. Edited July 7, 2016 by vtwinjunkie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1997reduxe Posted July 8, 2016 Share Posted July 8, 2016 yeah no doubt replace everything. i used to use the contitech kit that came with the best belt and original waterpump, it also came with best pulleys other than sube cause i think they were all made by original. but the seals you can look around on here i may have even made an old list of all i replaced, the best seals come from sube do cam and crank seals i mean yeah you can get away with it if its not leaking but whats the sense if the belts gonna last 75000 miles minimum? also all pulleys etc. i forget what all else. even the proper thermostat bowl and gaklet and tstat is a matter of debate, but yeah sube. HAHAHA NOW I REMEMBER HOW DEPRESSING IT WAS WHEN MY SEALS WELL ONE I THINK THE CAM ONE WAS GIVING ME THE SIEVE ACTION, AND MY LOSER "AUTO EXPERT" NEIGHBORS TOLD ME WHAT I NEEDED TO DO WAS TIGHTEN THE BELT COVER. OH MY GOD AM I GLAD I MOVED OUTTA THAT PLACE. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vtwinjunkie Posted July 8, 2016 Author Share Posted July 8, 2016 yeah no doubt replace everything. i used to use the contitech kit that came with the best belt and original waterpump, it also came with best pulleys other than sube cause i think they were all made by original. but the seals you can look around on here i may have even made an old list of all i replaced, the best seals come from sube do cam and crank seals i mean yeah you can get away with it if its not leaking but whats the sense if the belts gonna last 75000 miles minimum? also all pulleys etc. i forget what all else. even the proper thermostat bowl and gaklet and tstat is a matter of debate, but yeah sube. HAHAHA NOW I REMEMBER HOW DEPRESSING IT WAS WHEN MY SEALS WELL ONE I THINK THE CAM ONE WAS GIVING ME THE SIEVE ACTION, AND MY LOSER "AUTO EXPERT" NEIGHBORS TOLD ME WHAT I NEEDED TO DO WAS TIGHTEN THE BELT COVER. OH MY GOD AM I GLAD I MOVED OUTTA THAT PLACE. Thats frightening. haha. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vtwinjunkie Posted July 8, 2016 Author Share Posted July 8, 2016 (edited) Interestingly enough,I pulled the timing belt cover to see the extent of my leak and found nothing!!! I am dumbfounded.outside of coverInside of cover behind cover Other side One last one...In the essence of my cheapness....I was pretty happy to not have to take the radiator out by making a tool to avoid it! Edited July 8, 2016 by vtwinjunkie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fairtax4me Posted July 9, 2016 Share Posted July 9, 2016 Ohhhh snorkel tubes! That's just a little grease. I was thinking you had a constant drip of fresh oil. Thats probably some assembly grease from the water pump that ran down after the engine got warmed up that first time. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vtwinjunkie Posted July 9, 2016 Author Share Posted July 9, 2016 (edited) Ohhhh snorkel tubes! That's just a little grease. I was thinking you had a constant drip of fresh oil. Thats probably some assembly grease from the water pump that ran down after the engine got warmed up that first time. I swear it looked like a single drop of oil though hahaha. (it just hadn't hit the ground yet) Usually I would just wipe it off and wait for it to leak again, But since I am taking a few 1000+ mile road trips this summer I wanted to actually see what was going on back there! Edited July 9, 2016 by vtwinjunkie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fairtax4me Posted July 9, 2016 Share Posted July 9, 2016 Yep, better safe than sorry! A little inconvenient to have to pull the cover off again but at least now you know everything's good in there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caboobaroo Posted July 9, 2016 Share Posted July 9, 2016 No one has mentioned it but it is a very common place to leak, the wrist pin access plugs. They use sealant that over time gets hard and brittle, letting oil seep past and runs down between the oil pump and water pump. I almost never replace cam and crank seals unless they're black or leaking. If they're brown, most the time they don't need replacing even though people do. Then they use cheap seals which WILL leak. The access plugs are a 14mm allen. Pop them out, clean the old sealant off the threads, put some new sealant on and back together it goes. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vtwinjunkie Posted July 10, 2016 Author Share Posted July 10, 2016 No one has mentioned it but it is a very common place to leak, the wrist pin access plugs. They use sealant that over time gets hard and brittle, letting oil seep past and runs down between the oil pump and water pump. I almost never replace cam and crank seals unless they're black or leaking. If they're brown, most the time they don't need replacing even though people do. Then they use cheap seals which WILL leak. The access plugs are a 14mm allen. Pop them out, clean the old sealant off the threads, put some new sealant on and back together it goes. This is good info, Mine are actually brown (coincidentally the ones I bought are OEM subaru, also brown. I guess I will hold on to them just in case! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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