impostor Posted February 19, 2017 Share Posted February 19, 2017 GD, what do you do as far as honing the cylinders for the new rings? Jim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeneralDisorder Posted February 19, 2017 Share Posted February 19, 2017 There is no need to do any aftermarket parts on a non turbo. It would not benefit from forged pistons. The gasket you want is the part number ending in 770. They do not leak. Look for NPR brand rings. You can have the pistons knurled or you can buy the new updated pistons from Subaru to stop the piston slap. GD Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeneralDisorder Posted February 19, 2017 Share Posted February 19, 2017 GD, what do you do as far as honing the cylinders for the new rings? Jim DO NOT TOUCH the cylinders. Honing for ring seating is an old wives tale. Lube the rings and skirts with ATF and if you knurl the piston skirts leave them pretty tight. Knock em in with a hammer and run it. After 5,000-10,000 miles they will break in nicely and fuel economy, power, and oil consumption will all be perfect. Run SAE 30 non synthetic for the first 500 miles to seat the new rings. GD Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aschwerin Posted February 20, 2017 Share Posted February 20, 2017 What are the symptoms of the problem? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Supernoobie Posted February 20, 2017 Author Share Posted February 20, 2017 What are the symptoms of the problem? Are you asking me? If so, the engine is leaking oil on the exhaust y pipe, and I smell coolant when outside the vehicle. The coolant tank also went low once, I noticed it recently when I did my routine fluids check that I started doing when I noticed the leaks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
matt167 Posted February 20, 2017 Share Posted February 20, 2017 My opinion is, before spending thousands on a rebuild using knurled pistons. Simply stick in a jdm ej20. Have shop install so you get full warranty. $800-1000 engines come with good warranties. If your feeling lucky, you can spend as little as $500 if you negotiate an importer. $600 engines are easy to find but they are less willing to stand behind at that price 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Supernoobie Posted February 21, 2017 Author Share Posted February 21, 2017 My opinion is, before spending thousands on a rebuild using knurled pistons. Simply stick in a jdm ej20. Have shop install so you get full warranty. $800-1000 engines come with good warranties. If your feeling lucky, you can spend as little as $500 if you negotiate an importer. $600 engines are easy to find but they are less willing to stand behind at that price I will search for some info on the swap. Thank you, Do you all have a reputable engine importer/supplier that has known low mileage units for sale? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
matt167 Posted February 21, 2017 Share Posted February 21, 2017 I have dealt with jdm new York. A lot depends on where you are located. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeneralDisorder Posted February 21, 2017 Share Posted February 21, 2017 (edited) The EJ20 will be a lot lower on power. They cannot achieve peak HP because of the limited RPM of the USDM computer and incorrect gearing for their power band. Most people are unsatisfied with their output after some other shop installs one and end up calling me wanting to go back to a 2.5 Yes they are cheap. There's a reason for it - no one wants them. JDM engines DO NOT come with any guarantee of their exact mileage. They just say what the "typical" mileage is. This is marketing and much like the claims of pharmaceutical manufacturers.... "results may vary". I have had good JDM engines and very poor ones. Often the Japanese don't maintain their cars very well either. This has to do with the tendency to replace them every few years. It's not mandatory but licensing fees and taxes on older vehicles are high. The financial incentives to replace older cars are significant, maintenance is expensive so often it is neglected in the knowledge the car will be replaced soon anyway. If you buy one pay for a 2.5 from an importer that will give you a startup guarantee and can supply compression numbers. Before you install it pulls the valve covers - if it looks like a BBQ inside send it back. GD Edited February 21, 2017 by GeneralDisorder 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idosubaru Posted February 21, 2017 Share Posted February 21, 2017 (edited) You still haven't confirmed for sure the engine needs replaced. Leaking oil often means valve covers or oil cooler gasket - cheap and easy. Smell of coolant can be ambiguous - a small leak, a radiator cap not sealing properly...etc. IAny thoughts on which coolant additive I should use? I would also like to know if there is any oil conditioner that will help as well? Stuff that is available at chain auto stores like Advance or Autozone preferred please. I already answered that: Go with the Subaru Coolant Conditioner. Subaru requires it and that car was part of a 7yr/100,000 mile extended headgasket warranty. 8 years ago you could have gotten them replaced free. It is unbelievably common to go this route and if the directions are followed on a well maintained engine efficacy is solid.. SUbaru Coolant Condition is $2.50 from Subaru. I wouldn't use anything else. Additives in general should be avoided every time without a compelling platform specific reason. This one is part of a comprehensive Subaru initiative....maybe not ideal but better than billy's cousin's neighbor friend telling you to throw some magic cure in your engine. No there are no oil additives that are worth trying on that engine. Edited February 21, 2017 by grossgary Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idosubaru Posted February 21, 2017 Share Posted February 21, 2017 As to JDM - none provide better engines than another. There is a massive supply of engines from Japan and each company is simply tapping into that same supply with no advantage over another in terms of knowing anything substantive about the engines they're getting. It would come down to customer service, minor differences, and very small percentage rates. One company may be slightly better at culling product but the statistics would be so low the public will only see anecdotal evidence. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
matt167 Posted February 21, 2017 Share Posted February 21, 2017 This thread got off track IMO. OP came in asking about head gaskets and other general maintenance, and got suggested basically an engine rebuild.. A car like this in good condition is worth what, $5-6k in the right market? I know that's what it would bring here in the snow belt, at a Subaru specialized dealer that imports clean cars from southern states. IF the engine really did need some work ( and I doubt it does, at least to live it's useful life ), I wouldn't recommend Knurling the pistons. That was and has always been considered something just to get an old engine going again, back when cars lasted 50-75k miles or less before the engine was pooched.. It has been out of practice for ~30 years. Shops that still offer the service are normally knurling pistons that are otherwise NLA. vintage Snowmobiles and other vintage engines ect.. A shop generally charges $10-20 for the service per piston. Nor would I recommend spending 50% of the value of a vehicle on major engine repair.That's where the JDM EJ20 comes in. Sure you have to wind them up more, but their max RPM is still 6,250 just like USDM. They are better with a 5spd but you can have a reliable vehicle again at 50% the cost. All of them offer at least a 3 month warranty on engines if installed at a shop and failure would likely come before that.. If you have the money, burn it. But not many do. Spending $3k just because is foolish, unless your thinking of taking a vehicle to 300k miles or better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeneralDisorder Posted February 21, 2017 Share Posted February 21, 2017 (edited) ..... I wouldn't recommend Knurling the pistons. That was and has always been considered something just to get an old engine going again, back when cars lasted 50-75k miles or less before the engine was pooched.. It has been out of practice for ~30 years. Shops that still offer the service are normally knurling pistons that are otherwise NLA. vintage Snowmobiles and other vintage engines ect.. A shop generally charges $10-20 for the service per piston. Nor would I recommend spending 50% of the value of a vehicle on major engine repair. The knurling is done not for the same reasons it was invented. Not only do I do this about twice a week but I also own the Cadillac of knurlers (Perfect Circle Knurlizer). We started doing this because the factory piston skirts become scuffed and lose their Teflon coating. The knurling stabilizes the rings for better oil control by preventing the piston from rocking and it provides indentations to hold oil and act as a hydraulic buffer against the slapping - which will cause the knock sensing system to pull timing. Most of the knurling is actually filed off leaving only a slight increase on the barrel of the skirt and indentations to hold oil. It works very, very well. After we do this, piston slap never returns, and oil consumption is typically 0.25 to 0.50 quarts in 6k miles running full synthetic. You can speculating without real world results all you like but we have hundreds of very happy customers and this process is very popular. I'm sure you also believe in honing cylinders for ring seating because that's what everyone believes. It isn't true and hasn't been for 40 years. I have technical books from the 80s that state this emphatically - it should ONLY be done if using chrome rings or as a final stage in the boring process. As for spending more than 50% of the cars value being a basis on which you judge the vehicle no longer economically feasible.... that's laughable. Sure the car may be worth 5-6k but what repairs will be needed on the next car you buy for 5-6k? The old adage states "The cheapest car is almost always the one you already own". Someone is likely selling the next one you will buy for similar or worse reasons. There are very few out there for sale that have had the repairs done correctly and aren't hiding some ugly issue that will again be costly to repair at some point. Also you are saying throw away the car over a $3k bill and buy a car for $5k? Ok so you are obviously factoring in selling the broken car which you will get almost nothing for unless you do not disclose the needed repairs.... that's pretty shady and dishonest to do to the next guy. And if you sell it for it's real value and disclose that it has bad head gaskets you will get less than $1k (probably way less) and have to deal with people who buy cars at that price coming to your home or place of business..... it's a terrible situation. For most people it's better to just have a place like ours do the correct and lasting repair and just keep the car. We charge $2750 for a full re-ring job. That includes all 105k maintenance, etc. For just shy of $3k I can make than engine go another 250k with a 10mm oil pump, and a re-ring. And quite frankly - a LOT of people have the money to do this. We do approximately two or three a week... every week. For years now. And not a single one has come back with a head gasket failure or oil consumption issue. We do this day in and day out for a living. Trust me we know what works and what doesn't work. GD Edited February 21, 2017 by GeneralDisorder 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lmdew Posted February 21, 2017 Share Posted February 21, 2017 GD, I need to stop at your shop and say Hi, the next time I'm in PDX. Larry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeneralDisorder Posted February 21, 2017 Share Posted February 21, 2017 GD, I need to stop at your shop and say Hi, the next time I'm in PDX. Larry For sure. Stop by anytime. GD Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
matt167 Posted February 21, 2017 Share Posted February 21, 2017 (edited) The knurling is done not for the same reasons it was invented. Not only do I do this about twice a week but I also own the Cadillac of knurlers (Perfect Circle Knurlizer). We started doing this because the factory piston skirts become scuffed and lose their Teflon coating. The knurling stabilizes the rings for better oil control by preventing the piston from rocking and it provides indentations to hold oil and act as a hydraulic buffer against the slapping - which will cause the knock sensing system to pull timing. Most of the knurling is actually filed off leaving only a slight increase on the barrel of the skirt and indentations to hold oil. It works very, very well. After we do this, piston slap never returns, and oil consumption is typically 0.25 to 0.50 quarts in 6k miles running full synthetic. You can speculating without real world results all you like but we have hundreds of very happy customers and this process is very popular. I'm sure you also believe in honing cylinders for ring seating because that's what everyone believes. It isn't true and hasn't been for 40 years. I have technical books from the 80s that state this emphatically - it should ONLY be done if using chrome rings or as a final stage in the boring process. As for spending more than 50% of the cars value being a basis on which you judge the vehicle no longer economically feasible.... that's laughable. Sure the car may be worth 5-6k but what repairs will be needed on the next car you buy for 5-6k? The old adage states "The cheapest car is almost always the one you already own". Someone is likely selling the next one you will buy for similar or worse reasons. There are very few out there for sale that have had the repairs done correctly and aren't hiding some ugly issue that will again be costly to repair at some point. Also you are saying throw away the car over a $3k bill and buy a car for $5k? Ok so you are obviously factoring in selling the broken car which you will get almost nothing for unless you do not disclose the needed repairs.... that's pretty shady and dishonest to do to the next guy. And if you sell it for it's real value and disclose that it has bad head gaskets you will get less than $1k (probably way less) and have to deal with people who buy cars at that price coming to your home or place of business..... it's a terrible situation. For most people it's better to just have a place like ours do the correct and lasting repair and just keep the car. We charge $2750 for a full re-ring job. That includes all 105k maintenance, etc. For just shy of $3k I can make than engine go another 250k with a 10mm oil pump, and a re-ring. And quite frankly - a LOT of people have the money to do this. We do approximately two or three a week... every week. For years now. And not a single one has come back with a head gasket failure or oil consumption issue. We do this day in and day out for a living. Trust me we know what works and what doesn't work. GD Nope, I knew that you don't need to hone cylinders when doing a re ring, and I also know that a ball hone can mess up a perfectly good bore with the wrong operator, hence why I didn't mention it.. I understand the concept behind knurling for that reason, but I still wouldn't do it to my car. I'd rather replace the slugs at that point. I wasn't suggesting getting rid of the car.. Rather opening up the engine beyond head gaskets for a 1-2k premium ' just because ', simply just do the head gaskets. Sure it might rattle while cold or use a bit of oil, but the car would still make 200+ thousand miles... Where I am, probably 75% of the cars are Subaru and many of those are pre 2005 and those types of repairs would never sell even if they were offered.. JMHO. Different markets probably Edited February 21, 2017 by matt167 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idosubaru Posted February 21, 2017 Share Posted February 21, 2017 Where I am, probably 75% of the cars are Subaru and many of those are pre 2005 and those types of repairs would never sell even if they were offered.. JMHO. Different markets probably Another difference I've already mentioned is value and perception, it's totally different between here and there. It is not even a thought to wonder if a car can last 10 more years out west. Here that's not even close to reality. Rust is what it is and if you have inspections it can be an endless game of high dollar repairs - exhaust, quarter panels, doglegs, suspension, brakes.... Not only does this create personal, anecdotal issues with one car - it creates an overall perception of older cars as being risky and money pits which pervades the entire market. I rarely see 95-99 stuff any more and 00-04 are quickly headed that direction. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1 Lucky Texan Posted February 21, 2017 Share Posted February 21, 2017 (edited) owners lose billions due to rust http://newsroom.aaa.com/2017/02/road-de-icers-cause-3-billion-annually-vehicle-rust-damage/ Edited February 21, 2017 by 1 Lucky Texan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeneralDisorder Posted February 21, 2017 Share Posted February 21, 2017 Yes if the car is rusted up that changes the entire conversation. You do only what will get it over the finish line at that point. We have no rust here. I mean absolutely zero. The only rusted cars I see are from the east/mid-west, and a few that have lived in our coastal towns, etc. I have a 69 GMC truck that hasn't ever seen the inside of a garage and it's solid. So is our 56 roadmaster and my 86 Trans Am that sat in a field for over 10 years. Ours is different environment for cars. People keep them till they get wrecked or till its cheaper to buy something quite a bit newer. We actually have to crush cars when they can't be efficiently repaired due to parts availability, etc. GD Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Supernoobie Posted February 21, 2017 Author Share Posted February 21, 2017 The knurling is done not for the same reasons it was invented. Not only do I do this about twice a week but I also own the Cadillac of knurlers (Perfect Circle Knurlizer). We started doing this because the factory piston skirts become scuffed and lose their Teflon coating. The knurling stabilizes the rings for better oil control by preventing the piston from rocking and it provides indentations to hold oil and act as a hydraulic buffer against the slapping - which will cause the knock sensing system to pull timing. Most of the knurling is actually filed off leaving only a slight increase on the barrel of the skirt and indentations to hold oil. It works very, very well. After we do this, piston slap never returns, and oil consumption is typically 0.25 to 0.50 quarts in 6k miles running full synthetic. You can speculating without real world results all you like but we have hundreds of very happy customers and this process is very popular. I'm sure you also believe in honing cylinders for ring seating because that's what everyone believes. It isn't true and hasn't been for 40 years. I have technical books from the 80s that state this emphatically - it should ONLY be done if using chrome rings or as a final stage in the boring process. As for spending more than 50% of the cars value being a basis on which you judge the vehicle no longer economically feasible.... that's laughable. Sure the car may be worth 5-6k but what repairs will be needed on the next car you buy for 5-6k? The old adage states "The cheapest car is almost always the one you already own". Someone is likely selling the next one you will buy for similar or worse reasons. There are very few out there for sale that have had the repairs done correctly and aren't hiding some ugly issue that will again be costly to repair at some point. Also you are saying throw away the car over a $3k bill and buy a car for $5k? Ok so you are obviously factoring in selling the broken car which you will get almost nothing for unless you do not disclose the needed repairs.... that's pretty shady and dishonest to do to the next guy. And if you sell it for it's real value and disclose that it has bad head gaskets you will get less than $1k (probably way less) and have to deal with people who buy cars at that price coming to your home or place of business..... it's a terrible situation. For most people it's better to just have a place like ours do the correct and lasting repair and just keep the car. We charge $2750 for a full re-ring job. That includes all 105k maintenance, etc. For just shy of $3k I can make than engine go another 250k with a 10mm oil pump, and a re-ring. And quite frankly - a LOT of people have the money to do this. We do approximately two or three a week... every week. For years now. And not a single one has come back with a head gasket failure or oil consumption issue. We do this day in and day out for a living. Trust me we know what works and what doesn't work. GD Where is your shop located? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeneralDisorder Posted February 22, 2017 Share Posted February 22, 2017 Portland, Oregon. www.superiorsoobie.com www.facebook.com/superiorsoobie/ GD 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Supernoobie Posted February 22, 2017 Author Share Posted February 22, 2017 Portland, Oregon. www.superiorsoobie.com www.facebook.com/superiorsoobie/ GD Thats as far as it gets from me.......I gotta patch up the old wood shop roof this week. After that i am gonna pressure wash and degrease the undercarriage/engine and put the car up on stands to pinpoint the location of the leaks. i am hoping to find a leaky water pump, and oil cooler gasket. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeneralDisorder Posted February 22, 2017 Share Posted February 22, 2017 That's entirely possible. You will probably want to replace the oil cooler gasket then see if it still leaks from there. It almost certainly will be the head gasket but it could be both. The chances of the head gasket being completely dry on the passenger front and drivers rear (long term - past say 80k) are virtually zero. GD 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Supernoobie Posted February 22, 2017 Author Share Posted February 22, 2017 If I can minimize the leaks with a water pump and oil cooler gasket that would be greatly helpful. She only drives about 2500 miles a year, so I just need it to get her through until I can get some other things situated. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheRoadTrip Posted March 4, 2017 Share Posted March 4, 2017 (edited) I need info on the same car model, 2001 Outback, with 150k miles. So instead of creating another thread I will post here first. I had the oil changed and they came back with a big bill of things to be done. They said the Head Gasket was starting to leak. I certainty not saying they are lying as obviously this a known problem but should I get a 2nd opinion? If it just starting to leak is there anything I can do, such as using the Subaru coolant treatment as noted above? The car runs fine. There is a slight smell after driving and then parking. Also the check engine light does now come on sometimes. The ODB2 code is P0130 which should be the O2 sensor but thought would add just encase in has any relevance. If I do have to get the head gasket replaced I am going to shop around a bit (btw based in Seattle) I am going to ask these questions: 1. Do you machine the heads 2. What head gasket kit will you use 3. Warranty length Is there anything else I should be asking? This car was purchased about 2.5 years ago. I have a lot of repair records but don't seem to see any mention of a timing belt so would get that done along with water pump, thermostat I did get a quote for HG (including machining heads if needed) , Timing belt, water pump and thermostat, from a well known Subaru shop (but not dealer) for about $3,150 after all taxes and fees. (basically 2k labor, 870 parts). I realize it is not easy job but this does hurt. Trying to bring it down a bit. Any thoughts would be appreciated. Edited March 4, 2017 by TheRoadTrip Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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