Timing belt question

[ktdenali]

I just bought a 2000 Subaru Outback, 5 speed, 126000 miles. The dealer could not tell me any maintenance history at all, other than he thought it had a 100,000 mile tune up/scheduled maintenance.

He seemed like one of those dealers who either had no clue or he only lied when he lips were moving just to make a sale.

 

Well I got it for it is in great shape and took a long time to find one with a manual tranny.

 

I am not a mechanic, only know a few things in theory and can do basics in practice.

 

Does anybody know if there is a way to find out if the timing belt had been changed without taking the whole thing apart?

I have a Chilton's manual, and according to that inspection looks complicated. Remove and then inspect.

I'd rather not pay a mechanic to tear it apart to find out the belt was recently done.

Any ideas????

 

Also, when I test drove it the engine was already warm and acted normal. At that time did not think much about that. As soon as I had it at home the first start ups in the mornings seem a little rough, until the engine warms up. At first it almost sounds clunky on acceleration until the engine gets warmer. Kind of like if the engine was low on oil and the pistons were crying for oil BUT my oil level is just fine. I am very used to the sound of a '96 Legacy, with the 2.2 engine - so quiet. This car almost sounds like a diesel at first.

 

Thanks a bunch if anybody has ideas, I would appreciate the help.

[OB99W]

[...] As soon as I had it at home the first start ups in the mornings seem a little rough, until the engine warms up. At first it almost sounds clunky on acceleration until the engine gets warmer. Kind of like if the engine was low on oil and the pistons were crying for oil BUT my oil level is just fine.[...]

The sound you're describing is likely due to "piston slap". Do a search here at USMB and on Google to better understand what that is.

[Rooster2]

If you bought the car at a Subaru dealership, you may want to ask the service department if they did the maintenance on the car. Talk to the service manager, with VIN # in hand, ask them if they can find the car in their computer. If so, they may tell you the name of the previous owner. I did that when I purchased my 99 used. I talked with previous owner to learn what maintenance had been done.

 

If you can't learn anything, then assume the belt was never changed, and have it done, along with pulleys. Prolly a good idea to pull the cover to see if the timing belt looks old, and has cracks.

 

I wouldn't be surprised if the spark plugs and plug wires are the originals, and prolly need replaced. Old plugs may be the cause as to why motor runs rough on start up.

[idosubaru]

It's actually really easy to have a look at the belt. Takes about 10 minutes.

 

You need a 10mm wrench and or socket. Remove three screws/bolts on either side of the timing belt cover. Takes about 5 minutes and is about as easy as unscrewing anything else, very simple.

 

Then look at the belt.

 

The sure fire way to know it's been changed is if it's not a Subaru belt, meaning it was done by a independent mechanic.

 

If it is Subaru then you can go by the looks of the belt/writing on the belt or the belt itself.

 

Take a picture of it and post it here, those of us that have done countless timing belts can probably tell you just by looking. Take a picture of the writing on the belt.

 

Once the cover is off you might not be able to see the writing, depending where the belt "stopped". You can turn the engine over by hand with a 22mm socket or just turn the engine on and off a few times until you can see the writing.

 

If your engine noise goes away after it warms up then you have piston slap and there's no cure for it outside of replacing pistons which is insanely expensive and intrusive to the motor. Not likely to be something you want to do - well over $1,000 to fix.

 

The good new is that it's benign and doesn't hurt anything, just your sanity.

[i_subie]

What you can do is take the timing belt cover on the driver's side off. Their should be 3-4 bolts holding it on. It should slide out, don't try and yank it out.

 

Put the car in neutral and take a ratchet with a 22mm socket and turn the crank pulley bolt clockwise or counterclockwise. If you can't get the ratchet in due to the radiator fans in the way, you will have to remove the fans.

 

Then from there, turn the crank pulley bolt with your ratchet and inspect the timing belt. Look for cracks, see if the markings on the TB are still there and the "Subaru ---->" marking.

 

As for the slap, could be due to piston slap. Not a big issue typical Subaru thing, my '99 2.5RS has(116K) does the same until the engine gets up to temp, never drive the car with a cold engine.

Edited January 29, 2010 by i_subie

[subaruplatt]

Not sure but if you really like it get it serviced properly.

My guess is it probably has never been done.

Hesitation can be from idle stabilization ( low idle ) or from electrical ( plugs coil wires etc ).

[subaruplatt]

Maybe yo just need new plugs who Knows?

[ktdenali]

Thanks for you all you posts. "grossgary" I did what you said and inspected the timing belt. It was easy, and I think it looks great. I saw no cracks, or even wear. The writing is still on there (SUBARU....), which makes me think it maybe newer then. I took many pictures and I would love to post them, but have no idea how, in this forum. I tried inserting img, but it comes up and a url, whatever that means, I do not know much about that side of computers.

 

Anyway, I also just recently changed the oil, and whoever did that before me put too much in there. I think. Looks like almost 5 qts, instead of the required 4.2. I am surprised it did not get whipped.

Also changed the spark plugs, and put new (copper core) Champion RC10YC4 plugs in there, what the book recommended. The ones I pulled out were NGK, probably platinum - not sure. The old ones I pulled out did not look too bad, but the threads were covered in oil, which is a red flag isn't it? Could be a lot of things. If it is not one thing, then another. We shall see how the car performs now, on milage and cold start up. My milage has been bad (22-24). I am used to 30-33 with a 96 Legacy with the 2.2 engine.

 

I have not changed the spark plug wires yet, and contemplating not to, as they look just fine, no cracks, or zaps coming out through the wires.

Should I change those too? What is the best brand to use (NGK)?

 

Again, thanks for all your help. This is a great forum. If someone tells me how to post pics I will post the pictures of the TB.

[ktdenali]

Thanks for you all you posts. "i_subi" I did what you said and inspected the timing belt. It was easy, and I think it looks great. I saw no cracks, or even wear. The writing is still on there (SUBARU....), which makes me think it maybe newer then. I took many pictures and I would love to post them, but have no idea how, in this forum. I tried inserting img, but it comes up and a url, whatever that means, I do not know much about that side of computers.

 

Anyway, I also just recently changed the oil, and whoever did that before me put too much in there. I think. Looks like almost 5 qts, instead of the required 4.2. I am surprised it did not get whipped.

Also changed the spark plugs, and put new (copper core) Champion RC10YC4 plugs in there, what the book recommended. The ones I pulled out were NGK, probably platinum - not sure. The old ones I pulled out did not look too bad, but the threads were covered in oil, which is a red flag isn't it? Could be a lot of things. If it is not one thing, then another. We shall see how the car performs now, on milage and cold start up. My milage has been bad (22-24). I am used to 30-33 with a 96 Legacy with the 2.2 engine.

 

I have not changed the spark plug wires yet, and contemplating not to, as they look just fine, no cracks, or zaps coming out through the wires.

Should I change those too? What is the best brand to use (NGK)?

 

Again, thanks for all your help. This is a great forum. If someone tells me how to post pics I will post the pictures of the TB.

[idosubaru]

As for the timing belt, they can still retain the writing, i'd compare it to a new one or post a picture here. Sounds like it has been replaced, but not really something you want to gamble on since it's an interference engine (broken belt = internal engine damage).

 

As for the plugs - NGK are preferred by most Subaru boards, but the Champions are common and OEM on some as well.

 

The oil on the threads might be fine, maybe it was just due to city mileage or something, or the overfilling?

 

My guess is since 5 quarts is so common the engine might even be designed to not be catastrophic if it gets 5 quarts, but who knows.

[nipper]

Timing belts live a very protected life. They are quite sheltered and can hold thier markings so they look like new.

 

When in doubt replace things. How does the seals look, I know you cant really see them, but any sighn of oil leaks? Also the cars history may come up on https://www.subaru.com/my-subaru/index.html

 

nipper

[ktdenali]

"grossgary"

 

thanks again for your replay.

I would love to post some pics but still have not figured out how. Working on it.

 

As for the oil on the plugs. They did not look to bad at all, and it has been doing a lot of city driving, in the Montana cold, and short distances (such as 5 minutes to the gym once a day).

My dad actually guessed the same, so thanks for seconding his opinion.

 

I was already looking into replacing the valve cover gasket, but it may not be necessary.

 

The TB's teeth also looked good to me, not just the writing, but I have not seen a new one, so..... I will try and post pictures if I can figure that out.

Thanks again

[ktdenali]

"nipper"

 

thanks for your advice.

I did not see any oil leaks at all, in fact all around the portion of TB I saw looked clean.

When I say I bought it from a dealer, I do not mean a specific Subaru dealer. It was a car dealership who happened to have a SUbaru, that actually came from an auction.

So who knows where it has been. It sure looks like it's in good shape (cosmetics-wise), but I know nothing about its engine.

 

I am gonna try to post some pics of the TB if I figure out how.

[nipper]

There is a compromise here. If everything looks new, you can change just the belt to have peace of mind, and skip everything else. However if you get leaks later on, then I would do the normal full timing belt job.

 

 

Also replace your PCV valve, your seals will thank you.

[xbeerd]

As for the timing belt, they can still retain the writing, i'd compare it to a new one or post a picture here. Sounds like it has been replaced, but not really something you want to gamble on since it's an interference engine (broken belt = internal engine damage).

 

I thought the 2000 outback (SOHC) was non interference?!?!? but the 99 and earlier DOHC's were

Edited February 2, 2010 by xbeerd

[johnceggleston]

I thought the 2000 outback (SOHC) was non interference?!?!? but the 99 and earlier DOHC's were

 

non-interference went away in 97 for 2.2L and 96 for 2.5L engines.

 

but interference is a relative term. there is a chance that SOHC will not bend valves, but it is not a guarantee. there is almost no chance that Dohc will not bend valves, i think.

[ktdenali]

here some of the pictures I took of the timing belt.

"grossgary" - you've asked to see them.

I was only able to do it as a url link, NOT as attachments.

 

USMB says they no longer do attachments, for it is too expansive for them to be the host.

please follow the link, and you should see the pics. thanks for your help

 

http://cid-5ffca51260a7352b.skydrive.live.com/browse.aspx/November%2017?uc=3&lc=1033

 

 

[bobaru]

I all so am waiting on a comment on those pics of the belt. Im my case my belt looks better than yours but I did find a loose spun slopy idler barring

[johnceggleston]

here some of the pictures I took of the timing belt.

"grossgary" - you've asked to see them.

I was only able to do it as a url link, NOT as attachments.

 

USMB says they no longer do attachments, for it is too expansive for them to be the host.

please follow the link, and you should see the pics. thanks for your help

 

http://cid-5ffca51260a7352b.skydrive.live.com/browse.aspx/November%2017?uc=3&lc=1033

 

 

 

in my very very very limited opinion, that belt does not look new. it does not look old and worn out, but not new either.

[robert_the_sane]

I strongly recommend you replace those belts...as has been said before, TB live very sheltered lives, appearance doesn't mean a thing.

Break one, and your engine is down for major internal repairs...

[nipper]

non-interference went away in 97 for 2.2L and 96 for 2.5L engines.

 

but interference is a relative term. there is a chance that SOHC will not bend valves, but it is not a guarantee. there is almost no chance that Dohc will not bend valves, i think.

 

 

Sort of got it backwards. DOHC valves (or pistons) can hit each other and bend. SOHC can hit the pistons and bend. Usually you never loose more then a couple of valves.

[ktdenali]

I will wait for a few more comments, especially the one guy who asked to see it.

I have never done a timing belt, and hear it takes quiet a but of mechanical knowledge, as well as the same time a bunch of other things get replaced.

 

According to the dealer (just a plain car dealer not Subaru specific) I bought it from, it had a 100,000 mile service done by the previous owner. Whatever that means, if he was even telling the truth.

So that TB can be 30,000 miles young, which is not that old. So I need some more opinions on those pictures.

Thanks for the comments, helpful for novice.

[nipper]

I will wait for a few more comments, especially the one guy who asked to see it.

I have never done a timing belt, and hear it takes quiet a but of mechanical knowledge, as well as the same time a bunch of other things get replaced.

 

According to the dealer (just a plain car dealer not Subaru specific) I bought it from, it had a 100,000 mile service done by the previous owner. Whatever that means, if he was even telling the truth.

So that TB can be 30,000 miles young, which is not that old. So I need some more opinions on those pictures.

Thanks for the comments, helpful for novice.

 

Actually a timing belt by itself is not that bad. A timing belt with everything else can be a bit difficult for a newbe.

[ktdenali]

see, I am not even sure what all should be done along with a TB. Actually, I do have a Chilton's manual, which may give me a list.

[nipper]

Complete:

Accessory drive belts

Timing belt

cam seals

main seal

re-seal oil pump

water pump

Thermostat (since you are there anyway and the system is drained)

Tensioner

Idlers

 

PCV valve would be a good idea, or at least check it.

 

nipper