Petersubaru Posted May 24, 2011 Share Posted May 24, 2011 1986 spfi conversion 4x4 somewhat lifted...some might say replace with an EJ..I know, I know, but anyway this is the problem..this block has an amount of untold mileage with 2 or 3 head replacements on it ... headgasket sealing ring has clearly indented its shape into the block (especially #4cyl) and I would think that the block surface would have to be milled since we tried putting newly milled heads (CNC'ed) on the block to no avail...but is it really worth it ??..and would someone still get 50k out of the HG job, ...everything else with this car is excellent and could travel anywhere at anytime if it wasn't for the head leak..I realize I may have to junk-it, but there is an emotional tie to this car...driven Key West to the Artic circle to near Belize, east/west coast and Mexico several times, as well as being a daily driver for work..she don't look pretty but that is the way I like it... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quidam Posted May 24, 2011 Share Posted May 24, 2011 Hey Peter, What's your skill level with wet/dry sandpaper, on a hand block sander and consistancy? Reuse the old head gaskets and spray them with Copper Coat. You would report back to us if you did this step, right. Or new gaskets that are compatable with Spray Copper Coat. Or something. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Subruise Posted May 24, 2011 Share Posted May 24, 2011 could someone point me to a thread of that nature? i just picked up a motor in need of hgs, and therefore de-warpage. thanx, RV Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tycho Posted May 25, 2011 Share Posted May 25, 2011 Deck it. Great chance to bring the quench clearance down a bit too, which is good for power and reduces knock (with a slight increase in compression ratio). I've run .030" piston to head on two EA rebuilds and it's worked great. Zero problems with headgaskets when using a decked block and surfaced heads ... and a working thermostat and good radiator. You could use High Tack on a regular gasket on a fresh install. It probably wouldn't hurt, but if the warpage is bad enough for water passages to blow out, it's not going to be a long term fix ... will just work a little longer than otherwise. You can re-use MLS gaskets over and over and over with High Tack (as the viton coating usually peels off to some extent after the heads have been torqued). Too bad there are no EA MLS gaskets. Blue or black spray paint works fine too when re-using MLS gaskets. You just have to install/torque before the paint dries. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crazyeights Posted May 25, 2011 Share Posted May 25, 2011 Agreed, I had both halves of my EA81 case decked about .005 to clean up the surface and the heads surfaced .020. The old head gaskets were some of the worst I had ever seen in a running engine:eek: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Petersubaru Posted May 25, 2011 Author Share Posted May 25, 2011 Agreed, I had both halves of my EA81 case decked about .005 to clean up the surface and the heads surfaced .020. The old head gaskets were some of the worst I had ever seen in a running engine:eek: Good to know you went .020 and when the limit is .012 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crazyeights Posted May 25, 2011 Share Posted May 25, 2011 I've heard of people going as much as .030-.040 on the EA81's but you start to run into problems with the intake no longer fitting without mods. I went .025 total between the deck and heads and used EA71 pistons which are also slightly taller from pin to top. No problems modding EA's they make LOTS of torque for their size. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idosubaru Posted May 25, 2011 Share Posted May 25, 2011 i recently went beyond limits on a head resurface too - the shop screwed the heads up, resurfaced again, all without ever checking and it was past limits. i installed the head and it's holding fine. really shouldn't matter much if the two machined surfaces are the same and clamping force is where it should be. typically i'd say decking an EA block seems like a waste of time. but if the surfaces and clamping force are proper it should hold. then yes having the deck blocked seems like the last step here. i would not coat headgaskets in anything, rarely do folks that do a lot of these do that. they are meant to install dry in subaru's, that's not the reason yours aren't holding. are you sure the headgaskets aren't holding? it's not a cracked block or anything else more ominous? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Petersubaru Posted May 25, 2011 Author Share Posted May 25, 2011 i recently went beyond limits on a head resurface too - the shop screwed the heads up, resurfaced again, all without ever checking and it was past limits. i installed the head and it's holding fine. really shouldn't matter much if the two machined surfaces are the same and clamping force is where it should be. typically i'd say decking an EA block seems like a waste of time. but if the surfaces and clamping force are proper it should hold. then yes having the deck blocked seems like the last step here. i would not coat headgaskets in anything, rarely do folks that do a lot of these do that. they are meant to install dry in subaru's, that's not the reason yours aren't holding. are you sure the headgaskets aren't holding? it's not a cracked block or anything else more ominous? I will look more closely at the block when it comes out and possibly have it dye tested for cracks..I never would put anything onto the gaskets like copper seal etc..no need to after one has seen the newer Cortec white colored HG's ..from a laymans perception ..."visually" and "feel" a better HG then felpro... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idosubaru Posted May 25, 2011 Share Posted May 25, 2011 Cortec white colored HG's ..from a laymans perception ..."visually" and "feel" a better HG then felpro...i've got both in my garage now, i know what you mean. corteco doesn't say to not retorque so i favor the fel pro's because of that since they have no propensity to fail if everything else is up to par. but your case obviously isn't normal so every advantage is a good thing. good luck! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Petersubaru Posted May 25, 2011 Author Share Posted May 25, 2011 i've got both in my garage now, i know what you mean. corteco doesn't say to not retorque so i favor the fel pro's because of that since they have no propensity to fail if everything else is up to par. but your case obviously isn't normal so every advantage is a good thing. good luck! ..cortec white wrapped in fine clear cellophane was recommended to me be an engine re-builder and no re-torqueing needed..however, there is still the old stock design by cortec still being sold, so I would think re-torqueing would be needed..."rockauto" sends me both for the same motor which was easily straightened out by them, ...obviously felpro is easier to get and is also a good product for their line of HG only Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Petersubaru Posted May 25, 2011 Author Share Posted May 25, 2011 I may have found the problem , ...visually you would not notice anything unusual when changing out the HG because of the way the motor is postioned in the car, but at the top of the cylinder which only can be seen with a mirror has some corossion or pitting just "below" in the cyl. where the HG ring sits onto the block..a very , very small leak over a long period of time would case this and yet not show up as fouling the plug black in color which I checked occasionally...coincidently at the same time I had a very small leak from the rad so adding some coolant from time to time would have been normal for me... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ricearu Posted May 25, 2011 Share Posted May 25, 2011 the biggest issues are intake fitment, and if you deck it too much, the push rods could be too long. altering rocker angles and valve adjustments. also, extreme decking could lead to your non-interference engine interfering with itself. Just food for thought. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Petersubaru Posted May 25, 2011 Author Share Posted May 25, 2011 the biggest issues are intake fitment, and if you deck it too much, the push rods could be too long. altering rocker angles and valve adjustments. also, extreme decking could lead to your non-interference engine interfering with itself. Just food for thought. fortunately my ea82 has no push rods..it might apply to an ea81, but I wouldn't know.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ricearu Posted May 25, 2011 Share Posted May 25, 2011 sorry ea81 mindset. yeah the timing belts wouldn't know the difference in deck height. just have to worry about intake mounting. if it's too far off, it could compromise the gasket area between coolant passage and intake port. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tycho Posted May 25, 2011 Share Posted May 25, 2011 Actually the timing belts will know, and it will retard the valve timing slightly. Belt tension is only taken up on the "slack" side, so the "taut" side distance will be reduced, thus resulting in a tiny amount of retard at the cam relative to the crank (but as you pointed out lift and duration won't be reduced and there's no risk of running out of lash clearance like in the OHV EA81). All non-MLS gaskets benefit from a re-torque. Years ago on the ENDYN forums (or it could have been SpeedTalk) there was a FelPro engineer talking about the PermaTorque gaskets. He noted that while they do not require a re-torque, doing an overnight cold re-torque (much easier than a hot one) will increase gasket compression from 90% to over 95%. Definitely worth the small amount of extra effort, and still way easier than a hot re-torque. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quidam Posted May 25, 2011 Share Posted May 25, 2011 (edited) there was a FelPro engineer talking about the PermaTorque gaskets. He noted that while they do not require a re-torque, doing an overnight cold re-torque (much easier than a hot one) will increase gasket compression from 90% to over 95%. Definitely worth the small amount of extra effort, and still way easier than a hot re-torque. Near Gospel here with "gasket slapping" is PermaTorque gaskets and 10 ft. lbs. over on torque. (Edit: And it is what it is.) Personally, If i'm going to do any of these I'm retorqueing. Takes that little extra effort and why not? I'm not gasket slapping. (Edit: I have PT here, and there is a time and place for those.) BTW, I can get Genuine Subaru gaskets for about $23.00 a set. Edit: at least right now here:http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/GENUINE-PART-SUBARU-ENGINE-HEAD-GASKET-OEM-11044AA013-_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQ_trkparmsZalgoQ3dLVIQ26ituQ3dUCIQ26otnQ3d5Q26poQ3dLVIQ26psQ3d63Q26clkidQ3d186524205866062874QQ_trksidZp5197Q2em7QQitemZ400144915559 I've used hi temp aluminum header paint and copper coat on many head gaskets, old and new. Just not on a Subaru yet. Doug Edited May 26, 2011 by Quidam Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idosubaru Posted May 25, 2011 Share Posted May 25, 2011 yes PS - i've seen prolonged driving cause exactly what you're talking about, actually really severe. not sure if i still have that block or head but i've seen a prolonged leak cause localized "wear", in this case it was actually quite a big divot in the block or head (i'm forgetting). i feel like i still have it and wanted to post pic's, but no clue where it might be. but yes, i've seen that exact thing before. everything up to par - they don't fail so the extra time retorquing is a waste of time for me. but to each his own and i don't mess with EA82/ER27 any more unless i have too...and even then i cringe and hide. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quidam Posted May 26, 2011 Share Posted May 26, 2011 As for Spray Copper. It's basically copper flakes and solvents, some tacky stuff. Copper is compatable with Graphite, no? Copper is very compatable with stainless. Question is, how compatable is the copper coat with aluminum. I can tell you now, I've used it on a steel shim headgasket, aluminum block and heads...may be some long term corrosion? IDK I wouldn't be afraid to use aluminum header paint on Subaru gaskets. Corrosion: All metals have a property called nobility. It is a measure of a metal's resistance to corrosion when in contact with another metal. A greater relative difference in nobility between the two metals in contact indicates a greater corrosion potential. Table 1.1.4 ranks the most common metals used in construction in increasing nobility, called the galvanic number. Table 1.1.4 - The Nobility of Common Metals 1. Aluminum 2. Zinc 3. Steel 4. Iron 5. Stainless Steel - Active 6. Tin 7. Lead 8. Copper 9. Stainless Steel - Passive Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quidam Posted May 26, 2011 Share Posted May 26, 2011 (edited) We skipped the step about pulling the dowels. Upper left corner, when I pulled these, I damaged the block. My intention pulling the pins, decking the block. Cylinder 2 and 4. This is the "best looking" side of the PermaTorque gasket we're talking about. I've never used one, but I'm sure it would do just fine, will even fill some of those imperfections. Right side where I have a pencil witness mark. This new head has a small gouge, and it involves the fire ring area. I'll get that fixed up for a SPFI I'm putting together. Edited May 26, 2011 by Quidam Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quidam Posted May 28, 2011 Share Posted May 28, 2011 (edited) It has one small crater, upper right corner, oblong water passage. Area where it doesn't get covered with the hedgasket. Pocket microscope. There are two "dents" where I damaged it pulling the dowels. Easy cleanup on that radius, all aluminum. Cylinder liners aren't involved at all in that. A new head with WD-40 between them, "sticks" to the block. I still need to get it measured, and go from there. I get charged less by the machinist when I do some of the prep. Makes his job easier, and cheaper. Edit: That's flourescent paint, and I use a blacklight. Edited May 30, 2011 by Quidam Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quidam Posted May 30, 2011 Share Posted May 30, 2011 (edited) 1.8L (EA82) 485-94Passenger Cars (OHC) New: 3.5655" - Min: 3.5450" HSSU18 (2) These are an option if you need them. Rock/Auto lists them too for EA's. I'm wondering just how well these are made, and what they actually look like. I'm wondering if I can use these only in certain situations. 020" Cylinder Head Spacer Shims Cylinder Head Spacer Shims help restore the valve train geometry, valve clearance, compression ratio, and cam timing to factory specs on engines where the cylinder head and/or block surfaces have been resurfaced below factory limits. Precision cut from 0.020" cold rolled steel, each shim is produced using a CNC laser. This eliminates the rolled edge present on shims that are manufactured using a punch press. Our shims are made from steel for several important reasons: 1. Steel has a higher heat tolerance than copper, the material used by other manufacturers. In hotter running late model engines, heat resistance is very important to insure the integrity of the shim. Steel is superior for this environment. 2. Steel cylinder head shims have a hardness factor similar to that of the block. This allows the gasket fire ring to properly "crush" as the head is torqued to spec. 3. Steel shims are less likely to be damaged in shipping and from mishandling or mishaps in the shop. Note: .030" & .040" shims can be special ordered, call Edited May 30, 2011 by Quidam Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quidam Posted June 1, 2011 Share Posted June 1, 2011 (edited) Hey Peter, What did you decide to do with your block? I got the passenger side, 1 and 3 done today...to this level on both of them. Here's the Cortico Headgasket. Here's NOS Beck/Arnley, both sides. Stainless, graphite...bought about 3 years ago. Current Listing. Here's Beck/Arnley's current listing. Victor Reintz current listing. Graphite and...? Current listing. Edited June 2, 2011 by Quidam Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quidam Posted June 2, 2011 Share Posted June 2, 2011 Been looking around: "MLS Headgaskets consist of 2-5 layers of steel sheets of different compositions and covered by an elastomer layer that gives excellent sealing properties. Beadings around the combustion chambers and oil/coolant passages increase the local sealing pressure (Macro sealing) whilst full-surface or partial elastomer coatings provide additional tightness (Micro Sealing)." " **Please note, a smooth flat surface is required on the cylinder head and the block to allow the gasket a chance to seal properly." Ummmmm, ok. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tycho Posted June 2, 2011 Share Posted June 2, 2011 Whew, which one is MLS? Sign me up! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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