dirtywork Posted January 15, 2012 Share Posted January 15, 2012 car has been running fine, drove it this morning to drop kids off, (45 minute drive), shut car off for 20 minutes, went back out to car to leave and it will not start. It is trying to turn over, but seems very slow. Hooked another car to it via jumper cables, no change. Still turns over slow and will not start. Never had this problem before. Suby has 275000 miles on it. No repairs have been made to the car recently. Positive cable had some corrosion on it, cleaned it all off- still nothing. please help Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davebugs Posted January 15, 2012 Share Posted January 15, 2012 Still need to check current at the starter. Last timing belt change? You're thinking it's a cranking speed problem and not fuel/air problem? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dirtywork Posted January 15, 2012 Author Share Posted January 15, 2012 last timing belt change was at about 150000 miles, so I am sure I am overdue on that. I will check voltage at starter and repost later, trying to round up tools to go back and work on car at other persons house. The starter just seems to be turning the engine over slow, like it is loaded or something. Not really sure- this suby has been super reliable, never had this type of problem before???? It has a hair less than a 1/4 tank of gas. I have not tested for any air/fuel problems yet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dirtywork Posted January 15, 2012 Author Share Posted January 15, 2012 would a timing belt cause a starting issue? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davebugs Posted January 15, 2012 Share Posted January 15, 2012 Yes because crank & cam sensors don't understand what's going on. Or better put simply out of time (literally). SO spark and/or fuel delivery could be off. I'm stepping out for several hours, others may have comments. Good luck. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
porcupine73 Posted January 15, 2012 Share Posted January 15, 2012 Hm, well timing belt is an easy thing to check, just remove the outer cover behind the coolant overflow tank (easiest to just pull the overflow tank, only two bolts for that anyway). But that doesn't necessarily make sense with your description that it is cranking slowly. Usually if the timing belt breaks it will seems like it is cranking faster than normal. Do you have a tach? Do you see any movement on it when it is cranking? I never checked it but heard if you don't see movement on the tach, it could be the timing belt, because it isn't getting any signal from the cam position sensor. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CoupedUpSubie Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 Pull your starter and have it tested. I had a similar problem and the starter ended up quitting a few hours later. If you absolutely need the car to get somewhere and its a manual then roll start it if you can. They fire right up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dirtywork Posted January 16, 2012 Author Share Posted January 16, 2012 I will check the starter today. Mine is a automatic, so I am stuck for now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1 Lucky Texan Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 If you have original cables - or even if they are old replacement cables, I'd put them on the list of possibilities. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
porcupine73 Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 Did you try running the shifter through all the gears, and maybe try starting in neutral? I did just have a slow crank and no start problem on my '96 Legacy 2.2L, still not completely sure what it was, as it then seemed to fix itself, but am suspecting something in the circuit that supplies power to the starter solenoid (neutral/park switch maybe), has a poor connection and was not fully engaging the solenoid. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dirtywork Posted January 17, 2012 Author Share Posted January 17, 2012 OK, here is a update. I load tested the battery- tested good. I unhooked the positive cable at the starter and tested the voltage- it has 12 volts at the starter. I tried starting the car again with another car jumped to it- still turns over slow and the dash lights dim. I watched the tach while trying to start the car and it does not move? I moved from park to neutral while trying to start- no change. I pulled the timing belt cover off, behind the overflow tank, near the battery- belt is on, but looks like it should be replaced. I have removed the starter and will take it to be tested tomorrow. Any other thoughts??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davebugs Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 I believe you need more than 12 volts at the starter. So we're likely back to the cables/wireing. But go ahead and have starter tested. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
porcupine73 Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 A better measurement would be the voltage at the starter while it is cranking. Unhooking the cable and measuring the voltage doesn't really tell you how good the cable is because there is no current flowing through it. It might read the same as the voltage at the battery with no current flow, but when the 150 amps or so flows through it when cranking, even a slight resistance can cause a large voltage drop. In an earlier Endwrench document they actually want to see the battery voltage drop below 11.0V I think it said when cranking, otherwise it says the starter likely is not drawing enough current and could result in a slow crank. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dirtywork Posted January 17, 2012 Author Share Posted January 17, 2012 OK, starter tested good at Auto-Zone I picked up a new positive power cable while I was there. Put starter and new cable on - no change- still cranking over slow. I then tested the voltage at the starter while attempting to start the car. (this is with another car jumpered to the suby also). 13+ volts before turning the key, down to 9 1/2 volts during cranking????? What next????? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dirtywork Posted January 17, 2012 Author Share Posted January 17, 2012 I also hooked the jumper cables from the running car directly to the suby's starter. That did not seem to change anything either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1 Lucky Texan Posted January 18, 2012 Share Posted January 18, 2012 if the belt broke and the cams slipped to an 'all valves closed' state - I'd expect slow cranking. this is gonna read funny but does it crank like; rur,rur,rur,rur,rur,rur,rur,rur or like rur,rur,RU-RU,rur,rur,RU-RU that is, is it 'loping' sorta when it cranks? while someone is cranking, hold a strip of paper at the tailpipe and see if it hangs straight, blows out, or tries to suck inwards. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dirtywork Posted January 18, 2012 Author Share Posted January 18, 2012 (edited) do I need to cover the entire area of the tailpipe for this paper test? I think the starting sound is rur,rur,rur,rur. I will double check when I do the paper test. Edited January 18, 2012 by dirtywork typed in wrong words Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davebugs Posted January 18, 2012 Share Posted January 18, 2012 Yea the whole tailpipe works best. Because we're still back to cables (getting down to 9 volts) OR the engine is being too resistant. Ever hear of a compression tester? The tailpipe trick often helps but I think you're heading to double checking the timing belt(to see if it's a current problem) and running a compression test(to see if it's leftover from timing belt breaking). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1 Lucky Texan Posted January 18, 2012 Share Posted January 18, 2012 do I need to cover the entire area of the tailpipe for this paper test? I think the starting sound is ru,ru,ru,ru. I will double check when I do the paper test. to be perfectly honest, I have never tried. I always read it was a strip of paper. The idea is, a normal/working engine (say - with ignition disabled) should never have any valves in a position that would create pressure lower than the atmosphere. It should only blow OUT (though, there are pulses) If exhaust valves are stuck open during an intake or power stroke(broken belt, severely slipped timing), the tailpipe would try to 'inhale' the paper strip. IIf it just hangs there, all the valves would be closed (this seems very unlikely) so - this a an easy test, but an iffy one done out of desparation! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dirtywork Posted January 18, 2012 Author Share Posted January 18, 2012 if the belt broke and the cams slipped to an 'all valves closed' state - I'd expect slow cranking. this is gonna read funny but does it crank like; rur,rur,rur,rur,rur,rur,rur,rur or like rur,rur,RU-RU,rur,rur,RU-RU that is, is it 'loping' sorta when it cranks? while someone is cranking, hold a strip of paper at the tailpipe and see if it hangs straight, blows out, or tries to suck inwards. another question--- You typed "if the belt broke". I pulled the cover off, behind the overflow tank on the battery side of the car and the belt seems fine (old and needing to be replaced, but still intact and tight). So, are you thinking that the belt could still be broken, even though it looks fine? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davebugs Posted January 18, 2012 Share Posted January 18, 2012 Tale off BOTH ends of the timing belt cover. 10mm Deepwell on 1/4 ratchet is what I use. Helps to remove overflow bottle on drivers side. Look to see that BOTH cam sprockets are lined up with notch in back of black timing belt cover. This is easy to check and quick. At this time you may learn enough from checking these cam sprockets to know if it's the timing belt. It COULD still be off - the crank versus the cams. But usually when a belt problem happens the cams no longer line up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1 Lucky Texan Posted January 18, 2012 Share Posted January 18, 2012 another question--- You typed "if the belt broke". I pulled the cover off, behind the overflow tank on the battery side of the car and the belt seems fine (old and needing to be replaced, but still intact and tight). So, are you thinking that the belt could still be broken, even though it looks fine? you're right, I did forget that. But, as noted, there are multiple failure modes; missing teeth from belt, broken cam sprockets, slipped timing, etc. good catch though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1 Lucky Texan Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 was this resolved? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bork Posted January 26, 2012 Share Posted January 26, 2012 A dollar bill over exhaust tip will work for the piece of paper. But not sure of its effective diagnosis. The next time someone has a definite TB jump, they should try this for the heck of it to see the results, for future. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
porcupine73 Posted January 26, 2012 Share Posted January 26, 2012 I'm not sure about the paper over the exhaust test. I did try that on '00 Outback before, and it did seem to suck the paper to the exhaust, but the timing was dead on and has no issues. I have a video of it I posted here somewhere maybe I can find it......ah here it is: http://www.ultimatesubaru.org/forum/showthread.php?t=79083 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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