Feels like I have no motor mounts at all

[CodemanLivs]

First hello all , long time user first time poster.

I'm not new to Subaru's , I'm definitely no noob when it comes to diy repair on them either. I've done it all from head gaskets to splitting a 5mt and replacing synchros (without a press.) 

I'm hoping someone will point me in the right direction. 

I'll try to keep it short. 

2002 Impreza outback sport 2.5L SOHC 5mt 

316631 original miles

Approx 190k on motor

Recently had to do the head gaskets , which I had been wanting to do so I could finally get to the clutch that has been shuttering so bad it's driving me nuts.  Lapped all the valves , put some MLS gaskets in it. And had the flywheel cut its first time. New clutch kit . Can't wait to get it back on the road. I started her up so far really good. In gear release the clutch and this teeth chattering , rumbling shutter happens just like it was when I pulled it apart  actually worse. WTH !?!

Feels like I have the wheels blocked and I've removed the motor mounts and I'm tryin to get it to move like that.  

Now , we only have to 2 cars so we need to use this one. So I run out , get new trans and motor mounts . Didn't help a bit. I'm looking at everything else. Half-shafts are great , tires are new , wheel bearings are good. 

In the meantime were driving it to work everyday. Sometimes 100 miles a day. If I just dump it and go it's not so bad. It doesnt have time to shutter. Its worse when we baby it.

Then about a month ago 4th gear starts to grind and within a week we cant even force it to stay in 4th , it violently kicks the shifter out. Then 3rd starts to go. 

At this point my thought is, OK. At least now I know what the problem has been. I start looking for a 5mt to match my set up. If you don't know , not such an easy task.  So just the other day I finished installing a matching 5mt and rear diff, (4.11 instead of my original 3.9) same year as my car from a donor with 180k on it. Yes it's well used . But the donor had blown head gaskets as had been sitting for a long time. The gear oil was in great shape and the drain plug had almost nothing on it  as far as metal grindings. And it was cheap which is what I needed. So I finally got it all back together and wouldn't you know it. The only thing I gained was 3rd and 4th gear..the shuttering is still there. So get all for wheels off the ground. Release the clutch. No shuttering. Pull the Ebrake, release the clutch and motor and trans are jumping all over the place while it shutters.  Carrier bearing is soft but intact. 

Does anyone have a clue as to WTH is going on here. Did I just put in another trans with the exact same problem but only half the mileage on it. Or I don't know..

The dog bone brace is good but there's no way it could even cause this if it weren't. 

I welcome all suggestions and comments . Thank you all for reading my long story. Any and all help will be greatly appreciated 

Thank you

 

Edited January 16, 2022 by CodemanLivs
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[montana tom]

I suspect the flywheel.

[CodemanLivs]

5 hours ago, montana tom said:

I suspect the flywheel.

If I hadn't just had it resurfaced at a really reliable machine shop maybe. But I know it was as true as a flywheel could be. 

Also there is no vibration other than from a dead stop or downshifting to slow down(which then feels like the trans is gonna fall out on the ground)

Once the car gets moving it runs and drives beautifully.

[CodemanLivs]

Oh and besides the fact that I know the flywheel was as true as can be. It was also torqued to spec with locktite on all the bolts. As was the clutch pressure plate.

While doing the most recent install of the motor and new used trans, I was extremely diligent . Took my time, went over every torqued bolt even a third time to ensure it was all done correctly

 

[lmdew]

Driveshaft u-joints, mid bearing.  How were the bushing for the rear diff?

[laegion]

From your description it seems it has to be the clutch or flywheel, since it seems that it only happens when releasing the clutch pedal. Not deceleration and accelerating while in gear?

You didn't mention; but I'm assuming the clutch is fully disengaging? Meaning you're not having trouble shifting into 1st from neutral while stopped?

The only other thing I can think of would be the transmission input shaft bearing. 

Edited January 17, 2022 by laegion

[1 Lucky Texan]

any clunking shifting from fwd / rev.?

I can't imagine a cracked release fork would do this so, just gotta leave it to the gurus above lol!

[nvu]

It almost sounds like the clutch pedal doesn't fully release when you let off.  I'd be looking at the master cylinder and pedal assembly for cracks.  02-05 tends to crack where the pedals mount onto the top of firewall.  At this point might as well take apart both master and slave cylinders and clean them out.  Maybe a clog or kink in the line is causing slow let off.

[CodemanLivs]

On 1/16/2022 at 3:22 PM, lmdew said:

Driveshaft u-joints, mid bearing.  How were the bushing for the rear diff?

I spent last week thinking it has to be the in the drive shaft. 

So again i got all 4 wheels off the ground . The carrier bearing seemed soft, u-joints are all solid.

Had my friend under it while I basically Dyno tested it. First gear small amount of throttle and release the clutch.... NO vibration at all. 

Even got it up to 3rd gear before I chickened out and stopped. I don't need it to come off the stands onto my buddy. His wife would kill me!!

Anyway, no vibrations. 

Then I pulled the e brake to the first detent (click).

First gear, little throttle, as i release the clutch, Instantly shuttering bad !!

My buddy is under the car saying the drive line was fine the whole time. He said it's the motor and trans jumping around. 

Why would pinching the back brakes cause the motor and trans to try and come off their mounts.

And remember theses are all brand new mounts !!

Oh and I finally changed the dog bone mount (anti pitch mount) whatever it's called. And it made absolutely no difference. The old one was fine

[CodemanLivs]

On 1/16/2022 at 9:41 PM, laegion said:

From your description it seems it has to be the clutch or flywheel, since it seems that it only happens when releasing the clutch pedal. Not deceleration and accelerating while in gear?

You didn't mention; but I'm assuming the clutch is fully disengaging? Meaning you're not having trouble shifting into 1st from neutral while stopped?

The only other thing I can think of would be the transmission input shaft bearing. 

Clutch kit (pressure plate, disc and throw out bearing) and flywheel were brand new when this started. Then when I did the head gaskets i put all new clutch kit and resurfaced the flywheel. 

Then another new clutch kit just a cpl weeks later when I did the trans and diff swap. Which was just 2 weeks ago, maybe. 

The shuttering had remained consistent thru all of this. 

Which ....

How is that possible, I've changed every single thing. Is my crossmember broken ??

[CodemanLivs]

Funny until I was at the parts yard recently and seen a broken release fork I didn't know that was possible. 

So yes I thoroughly inspected the release fork. And yes I'm getting full pedal to the floor. The new trans is working and shifting thru all gears beautifully !!

Again the shuttering is worse when you baby it from a dead stop. If you get on it and go. It's not even there ! 

Oh and downshifting is a NoNo feels like I'm gonna drop the trans right there in the road.

I'm gonna post some video

Edited January 20, 2022 by CodemanLivs

[laegion]

1 minute ago, CodemanLivs said:

Funny until I was at the parts yard recently and seen a broken release fork I didn't know that was possible. 

So yes I thoroughly inspected the release fork. And yes I'm getting full pedal to the floor. The new trans is working and shifting thru all gears beautifully !!

Again the shuttering is worse when you baby it from a dead stop. If you get on it and go. It's not even there !

I almost sounds like an oil contaminated clutch disk...or maybe inferior quality clutch components or poor flywheel resurfacing. It's so hard to tell without actually driving it...

[el_freddo]

Does the shudder ONLY occur when the clutch is being slipped? 

I was thinking some issue of a shot driveshaft/half shaft that works the centre diff that’s shot. But that doesn’t work out as the centre diff would be under most load when going hard in this situation. Plus you’ll hear the typical knocking when doing a U turn in either direction. So that’s out. 

Other thought if it’s occurring when slipping is that the pressure plate is warped or the flywheel is full of heat stress cracks/wasn’t shaved properly. 

Last out there thought is your flywheel is loose, but this usually results quickly in other issues, like the flywheel parting company with everything else and exiting out the bell housing in whatever direction it feels like... 

Ok, last last one! Got any codes? Maybe you have a partial misfire or some issue where a cylinder is down on power at low throttle but makes up for it at full throttle for some reason. Or you have fuel pressure issues...

Cheers 

Bennie

[1 Lucky Texan]

triple checked all the mounts' bolts? exhaust hangers all ok?

 

I got nothing...

[CodemanLivs]

On 1/20/2022 at 1:47 PM, el_freddo said:

Does the shudder ONLY occur when the clutch is being slipped? 

I was thinking some issue of a shot driveshaft/half shaft that works the centre diff that’s shot. But that doesn’t work out as the centre diff would be under most load when going hard in this situation. Plus you’ll hear the typical knocking when doing a U turn in either direction. So that’s out. 

Other thought if it’s occurring when slipping is that the pressure plate is warped or the flywheel is full of heat stress cracks/wasn’t shaved properly. 

Last out there thought is your flywheel is loose, but this usually results quickly in other issues, like the flywheel parting company with everything else and exiting out the bell housing in whatever direction it feels like... 

Ok, last last one! Got any codes? Maybe you have a partial misfire or some issue where a cylinder is down on power at low throttle but makes up for it at full throttle for some reason. Or you have fuel pressure issues...

Cheers 

Bennie

No , there are no codes.

And yes ,as it's being released(slipping) . Once the pedal is up all the way the shuddering has stopped and as long as your accelerating it won't do it on the following shifts. 

But if you downshift , it is well.... Let's just say it's rather violent shuddering . 

The only thing I have not changed yet is the drive shaft /carrier bearing and u-joints. 

I guess that will be next. 

Is it possible to change the carrier , it seems as if it's not because they are sold as one unit at all the parts stores. 

Or is it that I'll need a press and some special rigging to do it. 

Also., Are the driveshafts interchangeable as long as it's off manual trans or do vary according to model??

[1 Lucky Texan]

has torque bind been ruled out? can't recall, and, indeed the symptoms don't really line-up. Does the car smoothly do tight circles on dry pavement?

[laegion]

15 hours ago, CodemanLivs said:

No , there are no codes.

And yes ,as it's being released(slipping) . Once the pedal is up all the way the shuddering has stopped and as long as your accelerating it won't do it on the following shifts. 

But if you downshift , it is well.... Let's just say it's rather violent shuddering . 

The only thing I have not changed yet is the drive shaft /carrier bearing and u-joints. 

I guess that will be next. 

Is it possible to change the carrier , it seems as if it's not because they are sold as one unit at all the parts stores. 

Or is it that I'll need a press and some special rigging to do it. 

Also., Are the driveshafts interchangeable as long as it's off manual trans or do vary according to model??

What brand/kind of clutch kit are you using?

[CodemanLivs]

6 hours ago, 1 Lucky Texan said:

has torque bind been ruled out? can't recall, and, indeed the symptoms don't really line-up. Does the car smoothly do tight circles on dry pavement?

I've never heard of this and I will go try the tight circles on dry pavement right now. 

 

[1 Lucky Texan]

I'll be shocked if this is the issue, just grasping at straws now lol!

[CodemanLivs]

On 2/4/2022 at 3:32 PM, 1 Lucky Texan said:

I'll be shocked if this is the issue, just grasping at straws now lol!

Ok cranked the all the way to both side and it turns smooth, no popping or binding or noise of any kind. 

What else ya got??

[CodemanLivs]

On 2/4/2022 at 9:57 AM, laegion said:

What brand/kind of clutch kit are you using?

This one was an Exedy.

I know not the best , but I'm fed up with throwing money at this thing!

[CodemanLivs]

Ok , here is the latest.

I went to pull your pick and got the drive shaft assembly off an 04 Impreza Outback . Like new condition  74 bucks  fit perfectly. 

Made NO difference what so ever !!!

This car is on the way to the crusher !!! I am not one to throw in the towel EVER!!! Failure is not in my vocabulary!!

I Cannot figure this out !!

List of items changed since this Shutter (vibration) started.

Motor, transaxel, rear diff, drive shaft assembly, flywheel, clutch KIT, all new motor and trans mounts, wheel bearing hub assemblies , brake pads and shoes. 

Ive even looked for a crack in the cross member the motor mounts sit on .. cause that's what it feels like , like something is broken structurally . 

 

Please !! Anyone else have any suggestions, I'll try anything. 

And I'm very certain , VERY VERY CERTAIN,. that every single nut and bolt were torqued to spec and thread lock applied as specified. Also , my clutch kit and flywheel are new and true . 

This is not clutch chatter, i know exactly how that feels. 

I have some video footage but it just doesn't convey the message

Even have footage from under the car. 

[laegion]

10 hours ago, CodemanLivs said:

Ok , here is the latest.

I went to pull your pick and got the drive shaft assembly off an 04 Impreza Outback . Like new condition  74 bucks  fit perfectly. 

Made NO difference what so ever !!!

This car is on the way to the crusher !!! I am not one to throw in the towel EVER!!! Failure is not in my vocabulary!!

I Cannot figure this out !!

List of items changed since this Shutter (vibration) started.

Motor, transaxel, rear diff, drive shaft assembly, flywheel, clutch KIT, all new motor and trans mounts, wheel bearing hub assemblies , brake pads and shoes. 

Ive even looked for a crack in the cross member the motor mounts sit on .. cause that's what it feels like , like something is broken structurally . 

 

Please !! Anyone else have any suggestions, I'll try anything. 

And I'm very certain , VERY VERY CERTAIN,. that every single nut and bolt were torqued to spec and thread lock applied as specified. Also , my clutch kit and flywheel are new and true . 

This is not clutch chatter, i know exactly how that feels. 

I have some video footage but it just doesn't convey the message

Even have footage from under the car. 

The flywheel is new? Or you're still using the original resurfaced one? I still suggest getting a new or used resurfaced one; and checking out the transmission input shaft play when you do.

[CodemanLivs]

On 2/13/2022 at 7:46 PM, laegion said:

The flywheel is new? Or you're still using the original resurfaced one? I still suggest getting a new or used resurfaced one; and checking out the transmission input shaft play when you do.

I was new 40 k Miles ago and.was great. The vibration started a month before I did the head gaskets. And even though i don't think it's the  problem... I guess I'm going to.have to agree with you that I should try it. After all it seems logical based on the type of chatter it has. 

Edited April 1, 2022 by CodemanLivs
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