urban_sub Posted December 20, 2005 Share Posted December 20, 2005 Hi - I'm new to the MB and have been reading allot about torque bind. I've gotten allot help from here and I thank you all. The AWD Legacy I have is experiencing the "braking phenomena" during tight turns. Doing the tests recommended from this forum and using some service manual information, I narrowed things down to duty solenoid C and maybe the clutch pack. Ohming the solenoid C line from the transmission connector (line 11 on connector B22) to ground, there is infinite Ohms (like no connection). I figure this can 3 things - a broken line, the connector inside the transmission had broken loose or solenoid C is truly bad. I also figure there is a possibility that the clutch pack maybe damaged by now since I have had this problem for 2 months. My problem now is finding a local repair shop that is willing to do the job. Dealership will do nothing less than to replace the whole transmission (for a price that I can't even sell the car at). Some local shops are asking cash up front and no guarantees. Are there any shops in California, San Jose area that will be willing to help me repair this? urban_sub 96 Legacy LS, 2.2L AT AWD PS - In case there are questions to the test I did, here is a list: FWD fuse - placed a fuse in and no change ATF flush - no change Flashing AT lite - hand shake with code 24 (for some reason this 96 model is not fully OBDII so there was no CEL). TCM to Trans test - all other solenoids are okay, ground feed back to TCM okay, just solenoid C has no connection. Visual external inspection of the trans seems okay, no broken electrical lines that I can find. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gnuman Posted December 20, 2005 Share Posted December 20, 2005 Hi - I'm new to the MB and have been reading allot about torque bind. I've gotten allot help from here and I thank you all.The AWD Legacy I have is experiencing the "braking phenomena" during tight turns. Doing the tests recommended from this forum and using some service manual information, I narrowed things down to duty solenoid C and maybe the clutch pack. Ohming the solenoid C line from the transmission connector (line 11 on connector B22) to ground, there is infinite Ohms (like no connection). I figure this can 3 things - a broken line, the connector inside the transmission had broken loose or solenoid C is truly bad. I also figure there is a possibility that the clutch pack maybe damaged by now since I have had this problem for 2 months. My problem now is finding a local repair shop that is willing to do the job. Dealership will do nothing less than to replace the whole transmission (for a price that I can't even sell the car at). Some local shops are asking cash up front and no guarantees. Are there any shops in California, San Jose area that will be willing to help me repair this? urban_sub 96 Legacy LS, 2.2L AT AWD PS - In case there are questions to the test I did, here is a list: FWD fuse - placed a fuse in and no change ATF flush - no change Flashing AT lite - hand shake with code 24 (for some reason this 96 model is not fully OBDII so there was no CEL). TCM to Trans test - all other solenoids are okay, ground feed back to TCM okay, just solenoid C has no connection. Visual external inspection of the trans seems okay, no broken electrical lines that I can find. So where do you plan to go with thiws? do you need a shop to do the work, or can it be done where you are? Do you have a replacement tranny to put in, or are you wanting the extension housing serviced (this can be done with the tranny still in the car)? Three things that may be going on here are that the solenoid may be gummed up, or bad. The valve body that the solenoid sits on may be gummed up and not allowing the oil pressure to drop, or the clutch rings may be bound to one annother. Taking the extension housing off (jack the car way up, drain the tranny, remove the exaust and driveshaft, as well as the heat shield that seperates the two, then remove the extension housing to gain access to the AWD section of the tranny. Work on this at a bench). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nipper Posted December 20, 2005 Share Posted December 20, 2005 I narrowed things down to duty solenoid C and maybe the clutch pack. Ohming the solenoid C line from the transmission connector (line 11 on connector B22) to ground, there is infinite Ohms (like no connection). FWD fuse - placed a fuse in and no change ATF flush - no change Flashing AT lite - hand shake with code 24 (for some reason this 96 model is not fully OBDII so there was no CEL). TCM to Trans test - all other solenoids are okay, ground feed back to TCM okay, just solenoid C has no connection. Visual external inspection of the trans seems okay, no broken electrical lines that I can find. Well you found the problem. The solenoid doesnt work. You have no resistance where there should be. Its a 50/50 crap shoot on damage. What wire did you test and where did you find it for the solenoid ( ild like to pass this on to another thread). If i remebr correclty the solenoid is fairly deep in the tranny, but can be repaired. At that point you can look at the clutches and see what they look like. Invesatigate a used tranny, as it may be easier then replacing the solenoid. nipper Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gnuman Posted December 20, 2005 Share Posted December 20, 2005 Well you found the problem. The solenoid doesnt work. You have no resistance where there should be. Its a 50/50 crap shoot on damage. What wire did you test and where did you find it for the solenoid ( ild like to pass this on to another thread). If i remebr correclty the solenoid is fairly deep in the tranny, but can be repaired. At that point you can look at the clutches and see what they look like. Invesatigate a used tranny, as it may be easier then replacing the solenoid. nipper The solenoid is in the rear extension housing, which is removable with the tranny still in the car. The solenoid and the valve body should both be replaced, unless this is a '98 tranny. That year they used an improved valve body that resists the gumming up that happens with overheated tranny fluid. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nipper Posted December 20, 2005 Share Posted December 20, 2005 The solenoid is in the rear extension housing, which is removable with the tranny still in the car. The solenoid and the valve body should both be replaced, unless this is a '98 tranny. That year they used an improved valve body that resists the gumming up that happens with overheated tranny fluid. cool so it only takes a few hours to R and R the solenoid? nipper Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
All_talk Posted December 20, 2005 Share Posted December 20, 2005 Here's a pic that may shed a little light, the C-sol is the bit with the green wire. More pics inside the 4EAT here: http://photobucket.com/albums/v204/All_talk/Subaru/4EAT/ Gary Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
urban_sub Posted December 21, 2005 Author Share Posted December 21, 2005 Thanks for all the replies. To answer Nipper's question - The connector is just under the hood over the torque converter housing. There are two found in this area -its the one closest to the driver side. It is a 16 contact connector in a 4X4 configuration. To test solenoid C (AWD) electrically, place an ohmmeter between pins 4 and 11 on the connector half going to the transmission. Looking at the contact side of the connector and the locking tab facing up, the pin numbering will start 1 on the upper right corner going left and down. So 4 will be on the upper left corner and 11 will be the third row, second from the left. This should show 9-17 ohms if solenoid windings haven't burned or wire connection hasn't been severed. Gnuman - since I am a wasted desk jockey, I was hoping that I could find a shop that would do the repair since I don't have the necessary equipment to drop a transmission and do some bench repair. All the shops want me to rebuild the trans or install a refurb. I guess if they are going to take the trans apart and warranty their work, they minus well make sure everything works. You mentioned that this can be repaired by just removing the extension housing, I see that the rear of the trans is supported by this housing. What is to support the trans during the removal? I guess if I was to work this myself, I probably will get a used tranny or transfer assembly and trade it out. All_talk - Thanks for the pic. Wonder what are the chances the connector between the solenoid and the trans just came loose? Too bad there isn't just a little service port to get to this. If I am burning some clutch plates, Its probably behind the middle section of the tranny. Thanks everyone. I guess I'm gonna mill over this a little longer before I decide to do it myself. urban_sub Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
All_talk Posted December 21, 2005 Share Posted December 21, 2005 If I am burning some clutch plates, Its probably behind the middle section of the tranny. The rear transfer clutch pack is in the tail housing, kinda orange-ish, cog looking thing. If the only issues with the trans have to due with the rear drive, chances are this is as deep as you will need to go. Here's another pic that shows some detail (sorry about the size). Gary Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idosubaru Posted December 21, 2005 Share Posted December 21, 2005 i'd swap in a used trans in good working order. shops will install for $150 -$300. i have a good used trans i'd probably sell, but wrong side of the country. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
urban_sub Posted January 4, 2006 Author Share Posted January 4, 2006 Just an update to my problem. After searching for a willing repair shop for two weeks, I found one. They indeed confirmed the problem was the solenoid C (they called it the transfer clutch solenoid assembly) and informed me that I caught the problem before the clutch pack burned. They mentioned that they usually get these too late and have to change both the solenoid and the clutch pack. I got my car running as before and it was about 10% the cost of what the dealers wanted to fix it for (like change out the whole transmission). I'm happy. Thanks Sanjay, nipper and both Garys for your input. The information helped me sound like I knew what I was talking about and the pics gave me a better understanding of what was going on in the trans. The shop repaired it just as Sanjay described. This message board rocks! urban_sub Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1 Lucky Texan Posted January 4, 2006 Share Posted January 4, 2006 Just an update to my problem. After searching for a willing repair shop for two weeks, I found one. They indeed confirmed the problem was the solenoid C (they called it the transfer clutch solenoid assembly) and informed me that I caught the problem before the clutch pack burned. They mentioned that they usually get these too late and have to change both the solenoid and the clutch pack. I got my car running as before and it was about 10% the cost of what the dealers wanted to fix it for (like change out the whole transmission). I'm happy. Thanks Sanjay, nipper and both Garys for your input. The information helped me sound like I knew what I was talking about and the pics gave me a better understanding of what was going on in the trans. The shop repaired it just as Sanjay described. This message board rocks! urban_sub Man, this is great! Um, please share the following with us; About how many miles under what conditions did you drive with the torque bind? (this might help us know how long the clutch pack can tolerate the failure since your shop said the clutches weren't burned up) Was the solenoid actually bad or was the wire broken? What is the name and location of the shop you used for the repair - sounds like a good shop and others in your area might be helped there too. thanx Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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