gcleeton Posted January 27, 2006 Share Posted January 27, 2006 I hate to suspect a criticism of my 96 and 99 Legacies, but - The cars are fine for straight traction out of snow, but my wife and I both think they are side-skid-prone. When you do go into a side-skid do you REALLY want any drive on your rear wheels - something tells me not? Shouldn't your car then be only PULLING, not PUSHING? Or do I have wrong tires? Buffalo Gil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andyjo Posted January 27, 2006 Share Posted January 27, 2006 The only time i slide to the side is when i give it to much nut, when i shouldn't be. Subaru's are great at drifting if you know how to correct for it Just take turns a little less harsh and you should be fine.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aps45819 Posted January 27, 2006 Share Posted January 27, 2006 We haven't had much snow here this year (riding the bike today), but I've found it's hard to get a skid going without trying. Using the parking brake and lots of throttle in a corner. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idosubaru Posted January 27, 2006 Share Posted January 27, 2006 if you're sliding then i'd blame the tires or driving before the AWD. if the tires aren't sticking i don't think any type of FWD or AWD is going to aid you nearly as much as skilled driving or better tires. i'd look into a good set of snow tires. i am much better at coming out of a slide with AWD than FWD. i'm either used to the AWD now that i almost always drive them or the AWD is better in those types of situations or a little of both. i'm not a racer so i'd lean towards the AWD being much better in coming out of slides. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
powderhound Posted January 27, 2006 Share Posted January 27, 2006 My experience has been that if you come into a corner too hot AWD cars (89 alltrac camry, 92 & 98 awd legacies) will oversteer which is perfectly predictable and controllable with the throttle and a little counter steering...not to mention damn fun...although it can be unerving if you're not expecting it...but I've had my 98 completly sideways at 70+mph (once coming down into Missula the road turned to ice and we slide between a cement divider and a semi and once on the Keweenaw penninsula going too fast around a corner) both times though awd saved my arse. In a FWD car its understeer straight for the ditch. I'd suggest a snow covered parking lot or frozen lake (if you can find one in north america) to practice four wheel drifts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rweddy Posted January 27, 2006 Share Posted January 27, 2006 I hate to suspect a criticism of my 96 and 99 Legacies, but -The cars are fine for straight traction out of snow, but my wife and I both think they are side-skid-prone. When you do go into a side-skid do you REALLY want any drive on your rear wheels - something tells me not? Shouldn't your car then be only PULLING, not PUSHING? Or do I have wrong tires? Buffalo Gil I would blame the driver. What kind of tires? All season tires are crap on snow, get some dedicated snow tires and you will be amazed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cannonball Posted January 27, 2006 Share Posted January 27, 2006 My experience has been that if you come into a corner too hot AWD cars (89 alltrac camry, 92 & 98 awd legacies) will oversteer which is perfectly predictable and controllable with the throttle and a little counter steering...not to mention damn fun...although it can be unerving if you're not expecting it...but I've had my 98 completly sideways at 70+mph (once coming down into Missula the road turned to ice and we slide between a cement divider and a semi and once on the Keweenaw penninsula going too fast around a corner) both times though awd saved my arse. In a FWD car its understeer straight for the ditch. I'd suggest a snow covered parking lot or frozen lake (if you can find one in north america) to practice four wheel drifts. I have to agree. That's why gravel road driving is so fun. Take a corner and when you feel the slide sideways just give it the gas and a little countersteer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ctoth Posted January 27, 2006 Share Posted January 27, 2006 Isn't this reason we all own subarus in the first place? Sideways is better! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jamal Posted January 27, 2006 Share Posted January 27, 2006 Well, with too much power in a corner, FWD understeers, RWD oversteers, and AWD sort of goes sideways. If the back starts to come out and you're not already spinning the tires in a RWD car, more throttle is the best way to get it straight again. It shifts the weight to the rear tires giving them more traction, and in an AWD car you've got all four wheels trying to get the car going where it's pointed. Braking when the rear is loose, on the other hand, is bad. Weight shifts forward, off of the rear tires, and it starts to rotate faster. Even lifting off the throttle mid corner can initiate this. The one time I slid into a ditch, throttle would have kept me on the road. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andyjo Posted January 27, 2006 Share Posted January 27, 2006 flip your 4wd switch mid-drift, it's a good time Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
friendly_jacek Posted January 27, 2006 Share Posted January 27, 2006 Well, with too much power in a corner, FWD understeers, RWD oversteers, and AWD sort of goes sideways. If the back starts to come out and you're not already spinning the tires in a RWD car, more throttle is the best way to get it straight again. It shifts the weight to the rear tires giving them more traction, and in an AWD car you've got all four wheels trying to get the car going where it's pointed. Braking when the rear is loose, on the other hand, is bad. Weight shifts forward, off of the rear tires, and it starts to rotate faster. Even lifting off the throttle mid corner can initiate this. The one time I slid into a ditch, throttle would have kept me on the road. I think you hit it right on the nail with the explanation. I learned that hard way when my wife drove and she suddenly lifted gas pedal on an icy curve. As soon as she did it we went in a 180 degree spin and our legacy landed in a deep shoulder. Clearly an user error, but most people driving AWD don't know that AWD behaves differently or has irs quirks. Hey, when ConsumerReport evaluated legacy back in 2000, they gave lower score on emergency handling due to "fish tailing" in obstacle course. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Setright Posted January 28, 2006 Share Posted January 28, 2006 Yes. Keep the gas pedal where it is, don't lift-off, just counter steer and it will catch the car quite fast. I much prefer mild oversteer to understeer. With understeer you run out of road too fast. The rotating motion of oversteer doesn't take you far off the cornering line, but does reduce excess momentum - aka speed ;-) And maybe fit some good snow tyres. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gcleeton Posted January 28, 2006 Author Share Posted January 28, 2006 I have studied your answers with interest and accept your unfounded criticisms of my (our) driving. But - Suppose the car was standing on ice and that theoretically there was no friction at all. You pushed it sideways into a 'skid', but then wanted to bring it straight. Wouldn't you pull it from the front with a piece of towing rope rather than push it from behind? Gil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andyjo Posted January 29, 2006 Share Posted January 29, 2006 [quote name='gcleeton']I have studied your answers with interest and accept your unfounded criticisms of my (our) driving. But - Suppose the car was standing on ice and that theoretically there was no friction at all. You pushed it sideways into a 'skid', but then wanted to bring it straight. Wouldn't you pull it from the front with a piece of towing rope rather than push it from behind? Gil[/QUOTE] No, you fire up your 8000# winch & pull your self out :brow: heh.. umm... i don't exactly understand the question, if you push the car sideways, and you want to yank it out.. of say a ditch? please re-phrase the question, i've done alot of pulling people out of stuff... i just don't get what you're saying... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Setright Posted January 29, 2006 Share Posted January 29, 2006 Um, no. All four wheels carry the car, steer the car, stop the car. Why upset the balance: Let all four drive the car too! I did think of something else today: Maybe you are going faster in those icy bends because the AWD allows you to gain speed with much less drama. In a 2wd car, you wouldn't have the traction to get you into trouble. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JPX Posted January 29, 2006 Share Posted January 29, 2006 What tires are you running? This has a major influence on how the AWD will react. I have all-season tires that tracked well in ice/snow. But you could break it loose if the tread got gummed up with packed snow. I imagine snow tires could produce more controllable results. Rain is a different matter - the tires pushed water out of the way quite well and the AWD tracked super predictably. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gcleeton Posted January 29, 2006 Author Share Posted January 29, 2006 No, you fire up your 8000# winch & pull your self out heh.. umm... i don't exactly understand the question, if you push the car sideways, and you want to yank it out.. of say a ditch? please re-phrase the question, i've done alot of pulling people out of stuff... i just don't get what you're saying... No I didn't say it was in a ditch. Let me make it simple. You have a toy car skidding sideways on ice. Wouldn't you rather PULL it out into a straight line with a string attached to its front end, rather than by PUSHING it from behind? So any pushing is disadvantageous, even 20%. So we think that FWD is better in a side skid and AWD to go into snow straight and come out straight. It's no good talking to us as though we are or should be, rally drivers, because we aren't, but we can both take our cars to bits and put them together. That makes the question more serious, not less. Gil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MountainBiker Posted January 29, 2006 Share Posted January 29, 2006 If you don't mind your rear tires acting like skis being drug behind the car, then get FWD. I like the rear tires to roll at a speed close to the actual car speed, to help find SOME traction, and that is one of the benifits of AWD over FWD. The thing is, once a significant skid starts (assume the car is in neutral for the moment), the tires have very little impetus to roll at the speed the vehicle is moving. I have observed the front wheel of motorcycles stop rotating after a slide initiates, on mud and pavement! This is without the front brake engaged! So you want to have something to keep the all 4 wheels spinning at close to the actual speed of the vehicle. This is why 2wd motorcycles are currently being developed. With the engine keeping the wheels rotating at near actual vehicle speed, you have a much better chance of achieving traction, thus ending the slide. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MountainBiker Posted January 29, 2006 Share Posted January 29, 2006 This might help. Wheel slip - There are two kinds of contact that tires can make with the road: static and dynamic. static contact - The tire and the road (or ground) are not slipping relative to each other. The coefficient of friction for static contact is higher than for dynamic contact, so static contact provides better traction. dynamic contact - The tire is slipping relative to the road. The coefficient of friction for dynamic contact is lower, so you have less traction. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WoodsWagon Posted January 29, 2006 Share Posted January 29, 2006 I see what your saying, but when a car is in a slide on ice, nothing is pulling. It doesn't matter if it is no wheel drive, countersteering is the only way to get it to regain static friction. The key to countersteering sucessfully is to have the slipping wheels speed matched to the ice. romping on the gas, FWD, AWD, or RWD will make things worse, esp. with FWD. it will not pull the car, it will just make the posibility of your steering wheels hooking up more remote. Steady gas is best. Even when people had RWD cars, you weren't supposed to drop off on the gas. So keeping the back wheels going near the speed they were when they broke loose was important. Awd gives you the benefit of keeping the front wheels speed matched too. But needless to say, FWD, RWD and AWD skids will feel different. Some may feel better with one skid over another, AWD is sometime scary because the WHOLE car is sliding, not just one end, but it makes it more predictable vs. FWD where the front will slide just about anywhere it wants to. RWD skids, while often intentionally done because they are fun, can get out of controll fast too. I have hit more than one embankment head on because of fish tailing out of controll in pickups. It's all a matter of feel. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jamal Posted January 30, 2006 Share Posted January 30, 2006 well, no. Using the throttle and countersteering tends to bring the car back in line better (unless you're only spinning the rear wheels). Even if the tires are sliding, they still have grip. The coefficient of friction of a locked/sliding tire is still about 70% of that of a rolling tire. Using the throttle is is going to create a force in the direction you want to go. Think of the tires as free body diagrams. If you're only countersteering, you have two lateral forces you're trying to balance out. Accelerating will create a force in the direction you want to go. How a car slides mostly depends on weight transfer. If the rear tires are sliding, you want more weight on them. Accelerating does this, giving them more grip. I've had my car in a slow slide where it continuted to rotate after I went to full opposite lock. Hitting the gas was the only thing to do to straighten it out. Why? because all four tires worked to pull me back in line, and weight shifted back onto the sliding rear wheels. Also as far as the pushing/pulling off of ice, I rather be pushed AND pulled. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the_bard Posted January 30, 2006 Share Posted January 30, 2006 For those of you who aren't mechanical engineers, or haven't spent three years in a Mech. E. program and decided you didn't want to do that any more, look here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andyjo Posted January 30, 2006 Share Posted January 30, 2006 For those of you who aren't mechanical engineers, or haven't spent three years in a Mech. E. program and decided you didn't want to do that any more, look here. i agree with the above statement. I'm an Aeronautical Engineer... but i've also go a Physics major going along too i think the dispute is over Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the_bard Posted January 30, 2006 Share Posted January 30, 2006 Whoops. Talk about sounding condescending ... what I meant is, if you aren't a M.E., and you have no idea what a free body diagram is, follow the link. In retrospect, though, I suppose the comment does work both ways. *shrug* :cool: We need a smiley for "foot in mouth." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Setright Posted January 30, 2006 Share Posted January 30, 2006 We have been having a lot of snowfall here this year! :-) AND: There is no doubt: lift-off the gas, turn-in, stand on the gas....the tail will slide out. A tiny amount of opposite steering lock will bring it back into line tidily. Lift-off, turn-in, stand on the gas, lift-off again and you get OH!versteer almighty :cool: Rescuing the slide requires arm twirling or a prudent prod on the gas. Stay on the gas, turn-in: mild understeer. Stay on the gas, turn-in, floor the gas and you get a nice four-wheel drift going. In this situation, lifting-off is likely to start a spin. I'm not brave/stupid enough to try. So, quit turning into bends without keeping the gas pedal steady, if you want to keep the rear wheels in line. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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