bella Posted February 2, 2006 Share Posted February 2, 2006 Few days ago I’ve read somewhere on a car forum that SUBARU has “stolen” 4WD system from AUDI. What dou you thing guys about this?????? My myth about Subaru.......is totter:-\ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nkx Posted February 2, 2006 Share Posted February 2, 2006 i think subaru pioneered 4wd on cars, or at least streamlined it and made it affordable. i think audi is credited with the invention of AWD though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kingbobdole Posted February 2, 2006 Share Posted February 2, 2006 they also stole engines from VWs... You really cant say anyone "stole" anything from anyone else, they can copy, but its not 100%... usually its updated and made better as it goes, but as far as someone pioneering the first 4wd system.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bella Posted February 2, 2006 Author Share Posted February 2, 2006 they also stole engines from VWs...You really cant say anyone "stole" anything from anyone else, they can copy, but its not 100%... usually its updated and made better as it goes, but as far as someone pioneering the first 4wd system.... You right,...but my question is: Subaru or AUDI made first car with 4wd/AWD?? Good luck. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LPGsuperchargedBrumby Posted February 2, 2006 Share Posted February 2, 2006 as far as i know subaru and audi where developing AWD at the same time.....and both came up with the same solution to the same problems Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phizinza Posted February 2, 2006 Share Posted February 2, 2006 I think Subaru were the first to do the FWD/4WD on the fly system. But I think AUDI were the first to do AWD... but its not like subaru said 'hey, they done it like that.' And if you say Subaru stole it from VW, where would you put Porsche? Didn't Porsche design the flat four? And seems VW was so closely related (with the bug being designed by Porsche engineers.) They don't steal designs, they buy them. Yet its pretty amazing how Subaru is one of the only manufacturers that doesn't share there body designs with any other company. Makes them more unque, also being flat engined and all. Stealing isn't the case, buying and improving is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
samo Posted February 2, 2006 Share Posted February 2, 2006 Yet its pretty amazing how Subaru is one of the only manufacturers that doesn't share there body designs with any other company. Makes them more unque, also being flat engined and all. Saab 9-2X 2.0T Subaru WRX Wagon Not quite true. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
suberdave Posted February 2, 2006 Share Posted February 2, 2006 thats what happens when GM gets there fingers in the mix. luckly for us and the rest of the world GM no longer owns any part of Subaru. -=Suberdave=- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
85Sub4WD Posted February 2, 2006 Share Posted February 2, 2006 Subaru predated Audi by over 5 years in the development of 4WD in cars; and the AWD concept was around MANY years before either ventured into the drivetrain, so it is simply incorrect to accuse Subaru of stealing ANYTHING from Audi -- the only thing they remotely took from anybody was the flat-four engine design from Porsche/VW, and the front-wheel-drive transmission design from Citroen - the 4WD concept was not a part of the initial design, and the way they went about adding 4WD was merely the simplist method of acchieving their goal - the rear diff is the same type used in many RWD Datsun/Nissan car from the 60's through the 80's Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monstaru Posted February 2, 2006 Share Posted February 2, 2006 thats because of the gm intervention though.......not a choice.didn't see daves post:drunk: \ Saab 9-2X 2.0T Subaru WRX Wagon Not quite true. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TROGDOR! Posted February 2, 2006 Share Posted February 2, 2006 I think VW was actually the first to have 4WD in a car. Back in WW2 the German army used a vehicle based on the VW bug that employed 4WD. The line is kind of blurred to if it's really a "car" though. Kinda like the Brat, is it a car or a truck? Depends on who you ask. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rllywgn Posted February 3, 2006 Share Posted February 3, 2006 i wish i could verify the source but, i remember watching a rally documentary a few years back that stated audi was the first to put AWD in a production car so they could use it in wrc competition. i think it started with audi's group N (?) cars back in the early 80's. am i missing anything? rllywgn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheSubaruJunkie Posted February 3, 2006 Share Posted February 3, 2006 Subaru's 1st 4WD Model was released in '76/'77. I Dont even think Audi was in production back then... I think the 1st Audi Quattro was in '80 or '81/'82. Regardless... Subaru stole their 4WD system from NOBODY. -Brian Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
85Sub4WD Posted February 3, 2006 Share Posted February 3, 2006 I think VW was actually the first to have 4WD in a car. Back in WW2 the German army used a vehicle based on the VW bug that employed 4WD. The line is kind of blurred to if it's really a "car" though. Kinda like the Brat, is it a car or a truck? Depends on who you ask. the problem I have with that is that it was not a civillian vehicle - it is like the jeep in that it was intended only for military purposes - the jeeps just proved to be popular enough that they went into civillian production (CJ-series) - at 669 units produced, it is hardly a common vehicle either - and for that matter, they basically a car body mounted it on a truck frame, and adapted to work - I give them credit, for the ingenuity but it was simply not that significant - Subaru's design is different in that it is unibody, and there are simply other basic differences - I have worked on bugs as well - (who hasn't??) I think the decision to do a flat four was also affected by the 360 - changing an inline-two cylinder engine design into a water-cooled flat four is a safe change in design - I have no doubt that the VW bug affected the decision to go for a flat-four, but it was the next logical step - for that matter, the VW bug was NOT the first car to use the air-cooled flat-four design, nor was Ferdinand Porsche the originator of the flat-four design - VW was sued in fact, for copying a Czech design called the Tatra T97 - if you look the car up, it looks almost exactally like the beetle, and it uses the same basic drivetrain as the beetle - VW lost the suit, and had to pay Tatra 3 million Marks in 1961 Audi was the first to do AWD, but not the first to do a 4WD car - the big deal is not however the difference between 4WD and AWD; it is the difference between driving 2 wheels, and more than 2 wheels - the difficulty of running axles to all four wheels of the car, and creating a drivetrain to run it all - not to mention the fact that solid axles were not used, and the shift-on-the fly concept is distinctly Subaru (and maybe the 4WD VW's) - If you look at the AWD system Subaru uses, it is virtually identical to the 4WD system, save for the output end of the transfer case; in fact, the gear that drives the 4WD/AWD system is EXACTALLY the same for both transmissions .... Realize also that there were different incentives for the two companies to do 4WD/AWD - Subaru did not go for rally until the first generations of the RX ~1984, the initial was for a car that could function in extreme conditions, and still transport people from point A to B - and do so cheaply - Audi was after performance, which is a different reason entirely - the RX was anyting but a copy of audi's Quattro - if you look at the design differences between the two, it is readily apparent I have serviced many German and Japanese cars, and the more I work on German cars, the more I think they are very overrated - From my personal expierence, Japanese cars seem to handle abuse much better than their bavarian counterparts, and maitnence schedules are far more relaxed; anyone who has serviced an Audi/BMW/Mercedes-Benz can tell you how problematic and extremely complex the electrical systems are on the car. That is probably a big reason why they are not doing well in most of the consumer magazines at present. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rllywgn Posted February 3, 2006 Share Posted February 3, 2006 audi was originally known as Auto Union in the thirties and made its way through the first year or so of world war II. in 1947 i think it reformed as Audi as said before subaru had 4wd back in 76-77 but AWD was introduced in a production vehicle by audi first. rllywgn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phizinza Posted February 3, 2006 Share Posted February 3, 2006 Woops. Forgot about that Saab thing. Oh, and alfa's use boxer engines. The 1600 they used in some '33's looks alot like the EA81. Though it has two carbs sitting on top of each head. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeneralDisorder Posted February 3, 2006 Share Posted February 3, 2006 I've said all this before, but.... The horizontally opposed engine and rod shifted transaxle driving all 4 wheels combination was used succesfully by VW (Dr. Porsche) for the German army back in WWII. By the time Subaru and Audi started building vehicles for mass consumption in the 70's and 80's this stuff was in automotive design reference books for all to see. There are lots of good designs out there, and Subaru picked this one, but they clearly did NOT invent anything original. The low center of gravity, good ground clearance, and symetric / balanced layout were good reasons for picking it. Subaru took a basically sound engine design and improved it with water cooling (both for engine AND passenger comfort). Thus for proper cooling, the whole drive had to be turned around.... easy since you flip the differential to do that. AWD and 4WD is simply adding a differential between the front and rear - nothing special there, just application specific. A point more minor than water cooling the engine, and putting it in front of the passengers really. You have to step back and see the forest for the trees here. Same design - we all drive logical decendants of the VW Beetle. Just because you people don't like that doesn't make it not so. GD Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bella Posted February 3, 2006 Author Share Posted February 3, 2006 thats what happens when GM gets there fingers in the mix. luckly for us and the rest of the world GM no longer owns any part of Subaru. -=Suberdave=- AGREE WITH YOU.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bella Posted February 3, 2006 Author Share Posted February 3, 2006 I'll give to that guy your opinions.anyway, very interesting what you all post here. Thanks for your info's. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WagonsOnly Posted February 3, 2006 Share Posted February 3, 2006 They don't share their bodies??? 2003-2005 Subaru Forester 2003-2005 Chevrolet Forester (India) Subaru Impreza WRX wagon Saab 9-2X wagon (North America) (Already mentioned) Suzuki Swift 1996-2000 Subaru Justy 4WD 1996-2000 (Europe)(4WD Subaru-exclusive) Phizinza, you know this car better as the Holden Barina of the same time period; we also got it as the Geo/Chevy Metro and the Pontiac Firefly. Suzuki Ignis 2001-present Subaru Justy 2001-present (Europe) Subaru B9 Tribeca Saab 9-6x (North America) (Cancelled when GM sold their stake in FHI...thank God.) Chevrolet Venture & other GM platform minivans Planned Subaru minivan Plan never came to fruition after FHI execs outright refused to sell a minivan without AWD and an H engine. But it was a nasty scare...There was also a rumor that the Outback would be sold under the Saab nameplate shortly before the B9T was released. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeneralDisorder Posted February 3, 2006 Share Posted February 3, 2006 Suzuki Swift 1996-2000 Subaru Justy 4WD 1996-2000 (Europe)(4WD Subaru-exclusive) Phizinza, you know this car better as the Holden Barina of the same time period; we also got it as the Geo/Chevy Metro and the Pontiac Firefly. Suzuki Ignis 2001-present Subaru Justy 2001-present (Europe) When will you people get the message?!? There is NO relationship to a Suzuki, or Geo in the Justy. It is a 100% FHI design. The ONLY thing they have in common is they are both 3 cylinder engines. Jeez - the engines aren't even the same size, and the Suzuki/Geo don't, and never did have 4WD, or the ECVT... GD Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WagonsOnly Posted February 3, 2006 Share Posted February 3, 2006 GD, I never said the Justies we got HERE, or ANYWHERE from '86 to '94 were ANYTHING but FHI products. However, just look at the external sheet metal on a '96 Justy, or visit Suzuki's and Subaru's European websites. Here's a British review of the '96 Justy: http://uk.cars.yahoo.com/car-reviews/car-and-driving/subaru-justy-2004322.html Look familiar??? "Justy" Google "subaru justy"+"suzuki swift" and see what comes up. Again, I agree that all North American Justies are FHI products. I put over 200 miles on one in the last 24 hours, and my back isn't totally locked up--that in and of itself tells me the car is either a Subaru or a Volkswagen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
samo Posted February 9, 2006 Share Posted February 9, 2006 ^ bing! Post-94 Justys (Justies?) are Suzuki Swift / Geo Metros. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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