seized engine 98 OBW ... any advice

[bearahu]

Hi,

 

This site is great. People here are very generous with their time and knowledge; thank you. I have a 98 OBW with 166000 miles on it. I recently noticed the signs of head gasket failure and immediately took the car to the nearest dealer. They diagnosed the common head gasket problem and charged me $3500.00 to remove and repair them, including thermostat, water pump, timing belt, spark plugs and wires, work on the valves, oil pan, seperator cover, main oil seals. One week and about 500 miles (and no warning lights) later I was driving on the highway 185 miles from home, heard a crack/bang sound from passenger side. The warning lights came on and car lost power. I pulled over to find oil all over rh side of engine. I called a tow to next dealership, left car and went off in rental.

 

Dealer 2 who has the car, took engine out and took it apart. He mentioned that oil was leaking from seperator cover but ultimately says the right cam was oil starved and siezed causing the cam gear to break. He also says the cam cover was installed backward and things this caused the problem. Block is now warped.

 

Dealer 1 doesn't think this makes sense and is having car flat bedded back to their shop.

 

I don't know a lot about cars; does Dealer 2's diagnosis make sense? Is Dealer 1 setting up to deny fault? Any advice?

 

Thanks

[idosubaru]

dealer number 1 will deny fault. my guess is they screwed something up.

 

did they say for sure if the oil level/pan was EMPTY?

oil all over the engine could have happened over time or right when the motor failed all at once.

any mention of coolant/oil mixing. just curious, none of this would probably tell much.

 

i'd search this board as well, most get charged $1,000 - $1,500 for a complete head gasket job. $3,500 is absolutely insane, i'd be very stern about fixing this motor with that kind of money in it. i'd search this board and print all the dealership head gasket replacement jobs that people have had done for $1,500 and ask them what the difference is. kind of late for that, but i wouldn't trust them.

 

i'd have someone (not the dealer) install a used motor for you. grab a 2.5 liter for about $1,000 - $1,500 or install a 2.2 in it's place for $500-$1,000. 2.2 won't blow head gaskets.

good luck with it, hope you get good results.

 

i can't recall the cam cover and how it would be installed backwards, maybe someone with a more recent memory can add to that.

[nipper]

dealer number 1 will deny fault. my guess is they screwed something up.

 

did they say for sure if the oil level/pan was EMPTY?

oil all over the engine could have happened over time or right when the motor failed all at once.

any mention of coolant/oil mixing. just curious, none of this would probably tell much.

 

i'd search this board as well, most get charged $1,000 - $1,500 for a complete head gasket job. $3,500 is absolutely insane, i'd be very stern about fixing this motor with that kind of money in it. i'd search this board and print all the dealership head gasket replacement jobs that people have had done for $1,500 and ask them what the difference is. kind of late for that, but i wouldn't trust them.

 

i'd have someone (not the dealer) install a used motor for you. grab a 2.5 liter for about $1,000 - $1,500 or install a 2.2 in it's place for $500-$1,000. 2.2 won't blow head gaskets.

good luck with it, hope you get good results.

 

i can't recall the cam cover and how it would be installed backwards, maybe someone with a more recent memory can add to that.

 

i agree. For 3500 you could have got a rebuilt engine installed with a 3 year warrenty. That dealer not only ripped you off, but royally screwed something up. i'm not seeing how the block can be warped but that point is moot. It sounds like they somehow blocked the oil Jounal or debree got in the journal to the camshaft.

Usual failure mode after a HG from an engine being baked is a spun connnecting rod bearing. Also i question why you got a valve job, as soobys tend to rarely need one.

Something stinks here. Document everything. Take notes, even on phone calls. Get everything in writing. MAYBE you will luck out by dealer #2, but i can tell you myself its hard to diagnose a failure when someone else has taken the failed item apart.

Send an oil sample to a company that analyzes oil. They can help rule out causes. Explain to them what happened.

Be prepared for a fight. Stand your ground, prepare for a fight. This is defanitly a failure due to oil starvation. An empty crankase makes for a very noisey engine, and wiped out bearings and possibly connecting rods.

 

nipper

[Subarian]

$3500 should have gotten you a new engine. The problem is that it's very hard to get a dealer to admit they did something wrong. I agree with Gary and Nipper. You can probably get an oil analysis at your local Caterpillar dealer or at some other heavy-equipment dealer, if there's still oil to be drained from the engine. Take pictures, keep receipts, get written statements from dealer #2, as much evidence as you can get. Often winning in a case like this consists of wearing down the other side. Good luck to you.

[Tiny Clark]

It had to at least have a 30 day warranty. They need to do the job over, or give you an new engine.

[a97obw]

Time for a little "show and tell!":banana: (NOTE: the bananna aint dancing on your account, only because I think this is what has happened..... I FEEL for you over this deal!)

 

Your dealer/mechanic that received the car after it "self destructed" is telling you the camshaft pulley (it IS plastic) shattered as a result of the camshaft seizing, and that the cam "cover" was incorrectly installed.....

 

Ok, my take. I think what they really mean when they say the cam "cover" was installed incorrectly probably means that the camshaft bearing caps were not installed correctly.

 

Note the photo of my 2.5 engine from my 97 Legacy Outback, prior to disassembly to replace the head gaskets. This is where a digital camera is worth its weight in gold....along with plastic sandwich bags to mark and catalog the parts with numbers, sketches, you got it...

 

 

 

Ok, this happens to be the drivers side of my engine, with the valve covers removed. Note the camshaft bearing caps. There are 3 of them per camshaft X 4 cams = 12 total. Each has two bolts that secure them to the cylinder head. The middle and rear caps use an M6 bolt that gets torqued to 14.5 ft. lbs., the front cap has 2 M4 bolts for it and they get snugged to 7 ft. lbs.

 

But they gotta go where they was (yes, I can say that) when the engine was originally built! The camshaft bearing caps are align bored with the cylinder head. In other words, you are not supposed to mix things up! If you note from the photo, this particular cylinder head is stamped, from the factory, with a designation of "YG" that can be plainly seen in the upper right hand of the cylinder head. Note also, that the camshaft bearing caps are stamped as well...with the same characters from the particular cylinder head..."YG"....the number is for which cylinder 1,2,3 or 4....."I" is for intake cam (the upper cam) and "E" is for the exhaust cam (the lower cam). The arrow points to the front (opposite the flywheel end) of the engine. And to make it all even more simple, the factory intended for you to install them so you could read them...without standing on your head! Subaru really doesn't want you to screw this up! For what it's worth, the passenger side cylinder head was designated with the stamp "SR"....along with all the bearing caps as outlined.

 

But if you take it all apart, throw the parts in a coffee can, have a fight with your wife and then 3 days later put it all back together....it CAN happen! And in your case, I'd almost guarantee thats what happened!!

[The Dude]

I would highly recommend that you familiarize yourself with the Small Claims Court procedures in your state. Assume that you are going to have sue this guy, and hope that you don't. This guy made a pile of money off you, chances are he's going to try to hold on to it.

[bearahu]

Thank you for all this advice, along with photos no less!! Dealer 2 explained his diagnosis in the same way as a97obw. He pointed out that the caps have to be put back in the right order and I'll be picking up paper work from him before I go to Dealer 1 who did the original head gasket 10 days ago. Would these bolts have been removed during a head gasket job and therefore put back in the wrong order by Dealer 1? In that case wouldn't Dealer 1 owe me a new engine as they did the work wrong and should really know this? Small claims court is a drag but at least I'll have some nice photos to show the judge. If they do offer to replace the engine, should I let them or does anyone know a good shop in the Buffalo NY area? Does talking to Subaru USA make any sense? Any further advice is greatly appreciated.

[dxrflyboy]

Another possibility (I saw this happen recently) is the camshaft oil feed was clogged with machine shop debris (I think this was also mentioned) during the valve job/cylinder head resurfacing. Fortunately for the customer in the case I saw, the car never left the shop.

[eventoday]

a97obw

that is an interesting point.

i bought some rebuilt cylinder heads for my 97 outback.

when i recieved them something looked funny.

they sent me wrong cam caps.

three of them had the exact same #

for example

3 of them said 3LI

cylinder 3 left side intake.

i knew about the line boring and sent them back immediately.

i am now glad i did after your theory

[a97obw]

Before Dealer #1 has the car hauled back to their shop on a flat bed truck, I'd make DURN sure that Dealer #2 and you both take a BUNCH of photos and even then I'd get at least the regional Subaru rep to take a look at what you have. Then go up the chain of command if you have to in order to get this resolved. Yes, mistakes can and do happen......but at probably in excess of $100 an hour for labor you'd expect to get a technician that knew to pay attention and get this part right, as it IS as you found out, crucial to the reassembly of the engine.

 

And yes, if the head gaskets were replaced, they had to remove the camshafts on these engines. In the photo I posted earlier, the "blueish" colored bolt heads are the cylinder head bolts, which on the 4 cam 2.5 engine reside underneath the camshafts.

 

On second thought, I don't think my car would be going back to Dealer #1. I think the Service Manager and the Owner of Dealer #1 would be driving to Dealer #2 to have a look at things.....with yourself and corporate Subaru folks.

 

Good Luck!

 

ps...need an "expert witness"? I've got a brief case, I'm from out of town, and I'll stay at a Holiday Inn Express if I have to...... I hear NY is nice this time of year!

[MDW25gt]

Before Dealer #1 has the car hauled back to their shop on a flat bed truck, I'd make DURN sure that Dealer #2 and you both take a BUNCH of photos and even then I'd get at least the regional Subaru rep to take a look at what you have. Then go up the chain of command if you have to in order to get this resolved. Yes, mistakes can and do happen......but at probably in excess of $100 an hour for labor you'd expect to get a technician that knew to pay attention and get this part right, as it IS as you found out, crucial to the reassembly of the engine.

 

And yes, if the head gaskets were replaced, they had to remove the camshafts on these engines. In the photo I posted earlier, the "blueish" colored bolt heads are the cylinder head bolts, which on the 4 cam 2.5 engine reside underneath the camshafts.

 

On second thought, I don't think my car would be going back to Dealer #1. I think the Service Manager and the Owner of Dealer #1 would be driving to Dealer #2 to have a look at things.....with yourself and corporate Subaru folks.

 

Good Luck!

 

ps...need an "expert witness"? I've got a brief case, I'm from out of town, and I'll stay at a Holiday Inn Express if I have to...... I hear NY is nice this time of year!

 

a97OBW knows his stuff. I would do as he says if it was me. I would not let Dealer 1 do anything more. Good luck. I have never had luck with the "Stealer". Not in Cincinnati, not in Akron and not in Charlotte. The Subaru dealer is truly the worst thing about owning a Subaru.

[nipper]

Thank you for all this advice, along with photos no less!! Dealer 2 explained his diagnosis in the same way as a97obw. He pointed out that the caps have to be put back in the right order and I'll be picking up paper work from him before I go to Dealer 1 who did the original head gasket 10 days ago. Would these bolts have been removed during a head gasket job and therefore put back in the wrong order by Dealer 1? In that case wouldn't Dealer 1 owe me a new engine as they did the work wrong and should really know this? Small claims court is a drag but at least I'll have some nice photos to show the judge. If they do offer to replace the engine, should I let them or does anyone know a good shop in the Buffalo NY area? Does talking to Subaru USA make any sense? Any further advice is greatly appreciated.

 

They need to be removed for "valve work"

 

nipper

[WAWalker]

Any way you look at this you got took by Dealer #1, as stated before you could have gotten a CCR rebuilt engine installed for that price.

 

Need to clairify and document what Dealer #2 is saying was installed wrong. Which is probably not possible if they have already dissasembled.

 

Oil starvation to cams is not unheard of. I havn't seen it personaly but I have heard of it happening causeing the problem that you discribed.

 

Best of luck to you. I had a customer who had head gaskets done at the dealer (under warranty on a used car purcase) and to save money they installed the old cam seals. Cam seal poped out going down the freeway, by the time the oil light came on it was to late. I replaced that engine with a good used one. Told dealer what caused the engine failure, dealer told customer they would give him $500 in store credit for his troubles.

[bearahu]

So here is the latest. I spoke with Dealer 2 who says cam caps were installed wrong and block is warped; Dealer 1 has the car but says block is fine and that if the caps had been installed wrong, car would not have made it 50 miles never mind 500. They are waiting to get heads back from machine shop and just want to make me happy. I got quotes for the original work from other dealers who came in $1500- $2000 less. Dealer 1 is looking in to this and lent me an 06 Outback. Is Dealer 1 correct? Would this problem have shown up right away if the caps were mixed up? If the block is warped what will happen when they reinstall it?

[a97obw]

They are waiting to get heads back from machine shop and just want to make me happy. I got quotes for the original work from other dealers who came in $1500- $2000 less. Dealer 1 is looking in to this and lent me an 06 Outback.

 

Man, this just gets uglier and uglier don't it! Why did dealer #1 send the heads off to the machine shop? Are they actually repairable? Hint---a parts manager at a Northwest US Subaru dealership informed me about a month ago that Subaru's price listing for "remanufactured cylinder heads" entailed a brand spanking new head. Other than surfacing the cylinder head mating surface, I don't know what your local machine shop could produce---IF they are able to machine the bottoms of the bearing caps and the "saddles" in the heads and then line bore them I'd like to see that.

 

Make no mistake about it, they put you in an '06 to try and make a sale. And seeing as how you really liked your old Subaru and don't want the new car payments, I think showing up at the dealership with your attorney and suggesting you'll take blue book private party value PLUS the $3500 you spent on the repairs, and they can do what they want with the car in order for you to forget about the whole matter might not be too far off the mark. You can always negotiate downwards from there. Hey, they just want to "make you happy", correct?

 

Good Luck and keep us posted!

[nipper]

So here is the latest. I spoke with Dealer 2 who says cam caps were installed wrong and block is warped; Dealer 1 has the car but says block is fine and that if the caps had been installed wrong, car would not have made it 50 miles never mind 500. They are waiting to get heads back from machine shop and just want to make me happy. I got quotes for the original work from other dealers who came in $1500- $2000 less. Dealer 1 is looking in to this and lent me an 06 Outback. Is Dealer 1 correct? Would this problem have shown up right away if the caps were mixed up? If the block is warped what will happen when they reinstall it?

 

SO far i agree that the block is not warped. If you warped your block, the crankshaft wouldnt turn, main bearings would be shot. From an engineering standpoint and mechancial enginering stand point, i honestly cant see how the block would warp, especially without afecting anything else.

Sounds like the dealer is trying to make good. i do agree that i dont know what a machine shop can do. They can machine the heads, do a valve job. If i recall the cam bearings are not servicable, but i may be wrong. i disagree with what the dealer said about 50 vs 500 mile. if one cap was installed wrong, i could see 500 miles. If the cylinder heads are no longer square, they are junk. There is only so much a machine shop can do.

I do agree though why did he send them offinstead of getting new heads. i would not allow these heads back on my car if i was you.

WIthout seeing these things in person, i cant really say one way or another, but something is getting deeper here. i dont like it. this would be an engine i would have serious issues trusting after this, and its a shame, but none of this is the cars fault, its the shops fault.

 

Dont let them get away with anything, stand your ground. The fact they are looking into the overcharge is telling me they are running scared and they know they screwd up. Also make sure a differnt mechanic is working on the car then did the first time.

 

nipper

[Olnick]

If you haven't already I'd suggest you get SOA involved in this.

 

Good luck.

[nipper]

Any more word on this?

 

nipper

[bearahu]

Hello again,

 

Well I'm still driving Dealer 1's 2006 Outback. They have now realised the block is warped, the heads are junk, and a whole lot of other parts need to be replaced. Basically it sounds like they are rebuilding the engine with new parts. The work is being done by their head tech rather than his son who did the first head gasket job. I've asked them to save all the parts so I can have a look at what happens when the cam shaft seizes at 65 mph. They've agreed to reimburse me for my rental car and I'm waiting to hear about the tow charge and over charge for the initial repair. I got a quote from the other Buffalo area dealer which was also $1000-$1500 less than what they charged me. I emailed SOA and they have been in touch with Dealer 1. I'm hoping this will all be resolved this week and that I can get a few more years out of my car. I'll let you know what the final result is. I would like to get the car thoroughly checjed out by someone who know's Subarus. Any recommendations in and around NYC? Thanks again for all the support and advice; this message board is one of the best things about owning a subaru.

[nipper]

If the are rebuilding the engine, make SURE it is a subaru engine with a subaru warrenty

 

 

nipper

[bearahu]

What else could they put in?

[Gnuman]

I would not trust any engine touched by Dealer 1. Make them put in a CCR rebuilt engine at dealer 2 and make dealer 1 pay for it, as they killed your original engine. You can also get SOA involved, and get a Subaru rebuilt engine (rebuilt by Subaru) installed at dealer 2. Do not let dealer 1 touch anything else on your car, or make them give you a new one for breaking the old one (not that they are likely to do that)