makkat Posted April 4, 2006 Share Posted April 4, 2006 '96 OBW 2.5 auto Well, got the heads done and back on and went to torque the camshaft bolts. SNAP. The #2 (torque sequence wise) intake cam bolt broke off below the surface of the head. I am/was doing the HG job in the car so I can't easily get an easy-out in to remove the remainder of the bolt. If I pull the head back off to remove the bolt, would it be ok to reuse the HG or should I order a new one? Where can I get the cam bolts? Are these just a hardware store item or do I need to get them form a dealer? I looked online and only see a listing for the headbolts. I must REALLY love my wife....... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gnuman Posted April 4, 2006 Share Posted April 4, 2006 Cam bolts are available at the stealership. Order a new HeadGasket. Once they have been torqued, they cannot be reused. The ones that hold the cam seals (and the forwardmost cam bearing) get torqued to 7ft-lbs, the larger rear ones get 14ft-lbs. At those torques they should not break. Subaru repair manuals are (unfortunately) infamous for inaccuracies in these areas, due (IMHO) to poor proofreading. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeneralDisorder Posted April 4, 2006 Share Posted April 4, 2006 Well - if the engine hasn't been run yet, I would say go ahead and use it again. Unless the grapite on the gasket is all messed up I think I would at least give it a try. When you torque it down the second time, give it an extra 10 ft/lbs or so on each bolt just as a precaution, and I think I would at least do a retorque on that head maybe in 500 miles. GD Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RallyKeith Posted April 4, 2006 Share Posted April 4, 2006 I think a lot of dealerships stock those bolts because they break or stretch. When you go to put it back together keep the bolt and the inside of the threads as free of oil as possible. Keith Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
a97obw Posted April 4, 2006 Share Posted April 4, 2006 I think if you were to remove the head and re-use that compressed head gasket you would be saying GD-it by no time. As far as re-torquing the heads in 500 miles, that would require you to remove the timing belt and the camshafts. Compared to $40 or so for a new gasket and doing it right, that don't make much sense. Do it?:cool: As for the bolts, they are a special bolt that has the shank of the bolt larger than the threads in order to center the camshaft bearings. If you broke one of the big ones, you'll easily break one of the smaller front cap bolts where the cam seal goes. I prefer to chase the threads with the bolts and a bit of WD 40 before putting it all back together. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeneralDisorder Posted April 4, 2006 Share Posted April 4, 2006 Depends on what you have more of - time or money. Personally I've seen old head gaskets that have been RUN used again with no problems. And until it's run and the AL block and heads expand to compress the gasket and weld the sucker in place it should be just fine to reuse - give the bolts that little extra turn to insure a slight compression durring install, and let the engine heat do the rest. And I still say do a retorque. It's good practice anyway. Subaru's are NOT swiss watches. But most of the people on here will never learn that. GD Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
makkat Posted April 4, 2006 Author Share Posted April 4, 2006 Cam bolts are available at the stealership. Order a new HeadGasket. Once they have been torqued, they cannot be reused. The ones that hold the cam seals (and the forwardmost cam bearing) get torqued to 7ft-lbs, the larger rear ones get 14ft-lbs. At those torques they should not break. Subaru repair manuals are (unfortunately) infamous for inaccuracies in these areas, due (IMHO) to poor proofreading. Now I am confused....I thought the cam bolts were all 14ft/lb and the valve covers was 7ft/lb? I also never noticed a difference in the size of the cam bolts. I did pull them out and put them back in the same position....which are supposed to be the large bolts and which are the small? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gnuman Posted April 4, 2006 Share Posted April 4, 2006 Now I am confused....I thought the cam bolts were all 14ft/lb and the valve covers was 7ft/lb? I also never noticed a difference in the size of the cam bolts. I did pull them out and put them back in the same position....which are supposed to be the large bolts and which are the small? The small ones are the ones that hold the cam seal in as well. The large ones are the ones that only hold the camshaft. You thought that they were all 14ft-lbs because the manual originally said that. a later correction gave the lower torque spec on the two at the front of each camshaft. Yes, it is confusing. Yes it was a mistake in the factory manual. Yes, you have good reason to be pissed off about it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
a97obw Posted April 4, 2006 Share Posted April 4, 2006 May as well toss in a link to this thread that covers what would probably happen ifin you weren't paying attention to the placement of the camshaft caps. http://www.ultimatesubaru.org/forum/showthread.php?t=54665&highlight=seized+engine Good Luck! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
richierich Posted April 4, 2006 Share Posted April 4, 2006 Depends on what you have more of - time or money. Personally I've seen old head gaskets that have been RUN used again with no problems. And until it's run and the AL block and heads expand to compress the gasket and weld the sucker in place it should be just fine to reuse - give the bolts that little extra turn to insure a slight compression durring install, and let the engine heat do the rest. And I still say do a retorque. It's good practice anyway. Subaru's are NOT swiss watches. But most of the people on here will never learn that. GD As owner of a Subaru Repair shop, I am telling you do not reuse the headgaskets. The bolts should be torqued down to specs but not tighter or you will break more bolts because they are stretch bolts. In addition I have NEVER known any Subaru mechanic to recommend re-torquing on this engine, as it would be a major job. Do it right the first time. period. GD has no experience with these motor and thus should not be posting replies when he knows nothing about the vehicle. He believes he has knowledge beyond his year, and it has gotten him in trouble on this board in the past. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flowmastered87GL Posted April 4, 2006 Share Posted April 4, 2006 I agree with Richie about NOT reusing the head gaskets. The early 2.5 engines blow head gaskets enough as it is when they are done properly! Use an old one and I'm sure you dramatically increase the chances of a gasket failure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
makkat Posted April 4, 2006 Author Share Posted April 4, 2006 The small ones are the ones that hold the cam seal in as well. The large ones are the ones that only hold the camshaft. You thought that they were all 14ft-lbs because the manual originally said that. a later correction gave the lower torque spec on the two at the front of each camshaft. Yes, it is confusing. Yes it was a mistake in the factory manual. Yes, you have good reason to be pissed off about it. Thanks Gnuman, I must have misread your post the first time or I would have seen that you listed the different torque locations. As for the bolts, they are a special bolt that has the shank of the bolt larger than the threads in order to center the camshaft bearings. If you broke one of the big ones, you'll easily break one of the smaller front cap bolts where the cam seal goes. I prefer to chase the threads with the bolts and a bit of WD 40 before putting it all back together. a97obw, I probably wouldn't have broken the bolt if I had been paying closer attention and didn't try to re-torque them 3 days later. I torqued them all to 7ft/lbs on Friday and re-read the manual on Monday and saw the 14ft/lbs. I did pay extra attention to the orientation of the caps, just mis-read what I was supposed to do to them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xrturbo Posted April 4, 2006 Share Posted April 4, 2006 not sayin its the right thing to do but i had a dumb rump roast move too when on the final step of head tightening i looked at the wrong spot on my torque sheet and wound up going 180 then 180 on the final tightening. i backed it off and re-torqued and that was 2 years ago with no issue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
a97obw Posted April 4, 2006 Share Posted April 4, 2006 WHOAAAAAA !! The head bolts actually survived a 180 turn to tighten followed by another 180 turn?? That should definitely put to rest the argument of re-using the head bolts! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShawnW Posted April 4, 2006 Share Posted April 4, 2006 Re-use the bolts, never re-use the gaskets. LH drill bit should get the bolt out of its place. You may need to take a small chisel to the bolt in a reverse fashion to kindof persuade it in the right direction--I hope you know what i mean. I have done 5-10 of these repairs without much problem. Worst case scenerio isn't that bad...insert the head with a Timesert. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
makkat Posted April 5, 2006 Author Share Posted April 5, 2006 Re-use the bolts, never re-use the gaskets. LH drill bit should get the bolt out of its place. You may need to take a small chisel to the bolt in a reverse fashion to kindof persuade it in the right direction--I hope you know what i mean. I have done 5-10 of these repairs without much problem. Worst case scenerio isn't that bad...insert the head with a Timesert. LOL, wish I was still down the street in Westminster so you could come over and do it for me! I will just order a new gasket since I have to get the bolts. I refuse to go to the morons in town that need a VIN number to get me a stupid grill clip. They were helpful once and actually found a discontinued number without needing a VIN. Guess I haven't been talking to the old guy who knows how to find things without the computer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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