PacMan Posted June 15, 2006 Share Posted June 15, 2006 Matt, sorry to confuse you with the ECU pin connector numbers I gave you. These were for the 1990 to early 1995 series Legacy's. You obviously have the updated model (introduced in mid 1995 in Australia) and the ECU and the wiring is drammatically changed from what I have to work with (a 1992 model). However, you should still get the wiring diagrams for your car and check the supply voltage to the ECU. ESPECIALLY since you've just found a fried relay! I don't know what you did to repair the damaged relay but I think you need to work out how it got fried and then make sure both the cause and the effects are repaired - fix the obvious things first. I don't have a wiring diagram for your car so I'm gonna butt-out of this thread. Good luck. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1 Lucky Texan Posted June 15, 2006 Share Posted June 15, 2006 Just a reminder to take your resistance measurements with the lead polarity in both directions. pin 1 red, pin 2 black - then reverse the leads. On may ECU or other 'solid state' items it will make a difference due to diode effects. good luck Carl Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nipper Posted June 15, 2006 Share Posted June 15, 2006 Something just came to me as I was sitting at the garage looking at dead Subaru. Two or so weeks ago, few days after timing belt was replaced I took this car down to Chicago to have rear tires installed. On the way there and back home I noticed how bad the acceleration was, especially when throttle was more than 50 % open. it sounds like a jumped timing belt or improper timing leading to a jump. How soon after the timing belt was changed was the car drivien, not just started. nipper Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mjez Posted June 15, 2006 Author Share Posted June 15, 2006 The only thing I can think this may be is a relay but whatever it is I don't think it has any bearing on the ignition problem. I forgot about the fuse problem you stated. It would be good to know what fuse this is. From the sounds of your description of the trouble I would say that the fuse holder connections were not making good contact and the high current through the resistance there caused excessive heat. You may have to replace that fuse position with a external fuse holder. Please let me know what the fuse position is so I can trace the circuit and see what is being powered on this leg. it was a main fan fuse, 20amps. I believe it's located in the middle row, second from the right when I looked at it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mjez Posted June 15, 2006 Author Share Posted June 15, 2006 Matt,sorry to confuse you with the ECU pin connector numbers I gave you. These were for the 1990 to early 1995 series Legacy's. You obviously have the updated model (introduced in mid 1995 in Australia) and the ECU and the wiring is drammatically changed from what I have to work with (a 1992 model). However, you should still get the wiring diagrams for your car and check the supply voltage to the ECU. ESPECIALLY since you've just found a fried relay! I don't know what you did to repair the damaged relay but I think you need to work out how it got fried and then make sure both the cause and the effects are repaired - fix the obvious things first. I don't have a wiring diagram for your car so I'm gonna butt-out of this thread. Good luck. oh no, this is 4th or 5th month of 1994 production, but somehow here in US they make it a 1995 model. doesn't make much sense to me but what do I know. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1 Lucky Texan Posted June 15, 2006 Share Posted June 15, 2006 it was a main fan fuse, 20amps. I believe it's located in the middle row, second from the right when I looked at it. might be worth inspecting inside every connector likely to have been disturbed during all the work for a bent pin or melted connections. I dunno Carl Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mjez Posted June 15, 2006 Author Share Posted June 15, 2006 Just a reminder to take your resistance measurements with the lead polarity in both directions. pin 1 red, pin 2 black - then reverse the leads. On may ECU or other 'solid state' items it will make a difference due to diode effects. good luck Carl will do, but later since I'm at work now Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mjez Posted June 15, 2006 Author Share Posted June 15, 2006 it sounds like a jumped timing belt or improper timing leading to a jump. How soon after the timing belt was changed was the car drivien, not just started. nipper the very next day I think... why? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mjez Posted June 15, 2006 Author Share Posted June 15, 2006 does anyone have a pin-out for ECU for early production 95 Legacy, I believe it's 4 or 5 of 94 production but in newer body. also, can't I check most of sensors at ECU connector? I should get some readings, right? Matt Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1 Lucky Texan Posted June 15, 2006 Share Posted June 15, 2006 does anyone have a pin-out for ECU for early production 95 Legacy, I believe it's 4 or 5 of 94 production but in newer body. also, can't I check most of sensors at ECU connector? I should get some readings, right? Matt I dunno about on a '95, but an ohmmeter can destroy some O2 sensors. The others are likely safe - someone else will comment I hope. Carl Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cougar Posted June 15, 2006 Share Posted June 15, 2006 it was a main fan fuse, 20amps. I believe it's located in the middle row, second from the right when I looked at it. If I have the correct fuse (#13), my info shows you are correct about the fan relay. If you have AC, then it is for the sub-fan relay. This is not going to have any effect on the ignition trouble but you do need to fix that problem also. Edit: I first forgot to say, "Good morning gentlemen. Are we ready for another big day?" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cougar Posted June 15, 2006 Share Posted June 15, 2006 does anyone have a pin-out for ECU for early production 95 Legacy, I believe it's 4 or 5 of 94 production but in newer body. also, can't I check most of sensors at ECU connector? I should get some readings, right? Matt Here is a link to a great site that a new member brought to my attention. I am using the factory wiring diagram info that I downloaded from it to refer to. There is a lot of good info here. To get the wiring diagram click on the "Legacy electrical wiring diagram/schematics" heading. http://www.subaruelectrical.com/index.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simbey1982 Posted June 15, 2006 Share Posted June 15, 2006 Just showing support and extreme interest as my engine swap is having just about the exact same problem Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cougar Posted June 15, 2006 Share Posted June 15, 2006 it sounds like a jumped timing belt or improper timing leading to a jump. How soon after the timing belt was changed was the car drivien, not just started. nipper I have to agree with you Nipper. If replacing the cam sensor doesn't fix this problem then this is the only thing left that can possibly be causing this trouble. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1 Lucky Texan Posted June 15, 2006 Share Posted June 15, 2006 I've read it can be easy to damage the tensioner (certain models?) and maybe it allowed for the belt to jump time? Isn't there also a common area where a belt with too much movement will rub/wear? I dunno Carl Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mjez Posted June 15, 2006 Author Share Posted June 15, 2006 I've read it can be easy to damage the tensioner (certain models?) and maybe it allowed for the belt to jump time? Isn't there also a common area where a belt with too much movement will rub/wear? I dunno Carl but would it make one side fire and not the other. if timing jumpped it would not fire at all I think, plus wouldn't the timing marks on both camshaft sprokets be out of allignment? someone please tell me this is truth, I don't really feel like doind timing belt again just to find out that this isn't the problem... Matt Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nipper Posted June 15, 2006 Share Posted June 15, 2006 but would it make one side fire and not the other. if timing jumpped it would not fire at all I think, plus wouldn't the timing marks on both camshaft sprokets be out of allignment? someone please tell me this is truth, I don't really feel like doind timing belt again just to find out that this isn't the problem... Matt i know dont how the logic works in the ecu. Sometiems we give the ecus way too much credit, as they are fairly dumb units. This is pure guessing It can have something to do with the communications between the cam sensor and the crank sensor. Remeber they spin at a 2:1 ratio, so what you are seeing as spark may not be spark at the proper time for ignition, but at the proper time to just make the 1-2 coil fire. the problem with waste spark is that you cant tell if it is 1 or 2 that are at compression, where with a dist you can. There is always a compression test to see if the timing is off. Its not that much aof a deal to pull the covers and look at the timing, i think that has to be investigated. If this was a customers car coming back, that would be one of the first things i would have checked with the driveability issues you described. Weather or not you like doing it, you have to look at the sequance of things. If you told us this right off the bat, i think almost everyone woulf have said double check the timing belt. You dont have to pull, just pull the covers tocheck that all the timing marks are where they are supposed to be. Without this timing, no matter what we tell you, no matter what you do or replace, nothing will work. nipper (and i keep saying im walking away form this, now its a challange) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1 Lucky Texan Posted June 15, 2006 Share Posted June 15, 2006 but would it make one side fire and not the other. if timing jumpped it would not fire at all I think, plus wouldn't the timing marks on both camshaft sprokets be out of allignment? someone please tell me this is truth, I don't really feel like doind timing belt again just to find out that this isn't the problem... Matt I dunno, I'd think you'd get a CEL. I THINK if the cam and crank sensors disagree it may not start in order to protect valves - maybe. I dunno if the ECU kills all the ignitor signals. I dunno Carl Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nipper Posted June 15, 2006 Share Posted June 15, 2006 I dunno, I'd think you'd get a CEL. I THINK if the cam and crank sensors disagree it may not start in order to protect valves - maybe. I dunno if the ECU kills all the ignitor signals. I dunno Carl if its a little out of synch depending upon the year the cel will flash at you. If its a lot out of synch it may not and already assume the car isnt running. thats a good question. Since the car isnt running the CEL light wont trigger, but there may be stored codes. In the begining of this entire mess, he said he drained the battery and disconnected the cable in essance resetting the puter. by now there may be codes to pull. nipper nipper Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nipper Posted June 15, 2006 Share Posted June 15, 2006 if its a little out of synch depending upon the year the cel will flash at you. If its a lot out of synch it may not and already assume the car isnt running. thats a good question. Since the car isnt running the CEL light wont trigger, but there may be stored codes. In the begining of this entire mess, he said he drained the battery and disconnected the cable in essance resetting the puter. by now there may be codes to pull. nipper this is ps to my thread. At any time has the car been left in the "on" position for any length of time without running? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mjez Posted June 15, 2006 Author Share Posted June 15, 2006 if its a little out of synch depending upon the year the cel will flash at you. If its a lot out of synch it may not and already assume the car isnt running. thats a good question. Since the car isnt running the CEL light wont trigger, but there may be stored codes. In the begining of this entire mess, he said he drained the battery and disconnected the cable in essance resetting the puter. by now there may be codes to pull. nipper this is ps to my thread. At any time has the car been left in the "on" position for any length of time without running? no, car hasn't been left in "on" position for extended period of time without running. also, what are the chances of timign belt jumping a tooth or more and both camshaft sprokets being still allign??? because this I checked... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cougar Posted June 15, 2006 Share Posted June 15, 2006 Matt, Are you planning to swap the cam sensor out to see if that will change things for the better? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nipper Posted June 15, 2006 Share Posted June 15, 2006 no, car hasn't been left in "on" position for extended period of time without running. also, what are the chances of timign belt jumping a tooth or more and both camshaft sprokets being still allign??? because this I checked... the belt can have jumped on the crank and not the cams. nipper Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1 Lucky Texan Posted June 15, 2006 Share Posted June 15, 2006 the belt can have jumped on the crank and not the cams. nipper Would that affect compression enough for a comp. test to be diagnostic? Also, if the ECU were inhibiting starting, I bet the injectors would be disabled too - so plugs, cylinders would be dry. I'm so lost (in addition to ignorant) I don't remember if the car gets fuel sprayed in it. I dunno Carl Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nipper Posted June 15, 2006 Share Posted June 15, 2006 Would that affect compression enough for a comp. test to be diagnostic? Also, if the ECU were inhibiting starting, I bet the injectors would be disabled too - so plugs, cylinders would be dry. I'm so lost (in addition to ignorant) I don't remember if the car gets fuel sprayed in it. I dunno Carl i cant say as i dont know the code or logic. I do know that i have often given ECU's far more credit then they deserve at times (like this). i really cant answer you there. Ecus tend to work off linear lines of design, where fault modes arent really taken into consideration. There are too many possible scenarios. nipper Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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