I can't let my wagon die!

[sad4subaru]

My 92 Legacy wagon will not start. My mechanic friend put a new coil pack in and there is still no spark going to it. He told me it could take a while to find the cause, and suggested I ask around so here I am. The engine turns over but there is no gas flow and it wont start. Juat happened out of nowhere. Any ideas of what to look for?

[OB99W]

I have some ideas, but a few questions first.

 

1) Did it die while driving, or just refuse to start one day?

2) How many miles on the odometer?

3) Where was the gas flow checked?

[Manarius]

If it's not getting any gas, it's probably the fuel pump.

 

Undo the fuel pump connector under the seat and crank the car. Then undo the lead tube from the fuel filter(it's the one that looks like it's coming from the back of the car) and put it into a bucket. Reconnect the fuel pump connector under the seat and turn the selector to the on position (do it quickly (maybe 3 seconds), just so that if the pump works, you don't waste too much gas). If gas goes into that bucket, you know it's not a fuel pump issue. Be prepared because it might be a lot of gas that goes into that bucket.

 

After that, try replacing the fuel filter. Or, if it's a hot start issue, try replacing the coolant temp. sensor. It's $37.99 + tax from autozone.

[nipper]

I have some ideas, but a few questions first.

 

1) Did it die while driving, or just refuse to start one day?

2) How many miles on the odometer?

3) Where was the gas flow checked?

 

good questions.

 

When was the last timing belt changed ?

 

nipper

[St Nickolas]

Shouldn't your mechanic do a bit more sleuthing before throwing parts at it?

 

OK, so there is no spark, correct? Two things I can think of to do:

 

1) check the timing belt. Pull one or both front side covers (all of 3 bolts each) and see if the t belt is all there.

 

2) Check the engine computer for codes. Get to the Legacy777 homepage for the procedure.

 

Nick

[sad4subaru]

I have some ideas, but a few questions first.

 

1) Did it die while driving, or just refuse to start one day?

2) How many miles on the odometer?

3) Where was the gas flow checked?

It just refused to start after driving it fine all day here and there. There are 180k miles on it. He said he listened in the gas tank for the fuel pump to click when I turned the key to the on position, and heard nothing. He mentioned it might be the timing belt, because I have never changed it. He really is not sure, I have to get him a chiltons so he can find his way around my car better. He really is a good mechanic, but he needs more time, and it is not free either. Basically he thinks it may be an electrical problem, but is hoping for some direction without having to blindly search.

[nipper]

It just refused to start after driving it fine all day here and there. There are 180k miles on it. He said he listened in the gas tank for the fuel pump to click when I turned the key to the on position, and heard nothing. He mentioned it might be the timing belt, because I have never changed it. He really is not sure, I have to get him a chiltons so he can find his way around my car better. He really is a good mechanic, but he needs more time, and it is not free either. Basically he thinks it may be an electrical problem, but is hoping for some direction without having to blindly search.

 

 

EEEEKKKK

well looks like you may have a little work to do. First off, get yourself a haynes manual and forget your freind for a while. The fuel pump does NOT click, it will hum. i hate to say it but your freind doesnt know a thing and should be kept far away from your car.

First thing to do is get the HAYNES manual. Then we can check the fuel pump (pictures help alot) to make sure its getting power.

It can be the timing belt or the fuel pump or some other things, but get the manual first. He should have been able to diagnose either one fairly easily.

How mechanical are you.

 

nipper

[OB99W]

It just refused to start after driving it fine all day here and there. There are 180k miles on it. He said he listened in the gas tank for the fuel pump to click when I turned the key to the on position, and heard nothing. He mentioned it might be the timing belt, because I have never changed it. He really is not sure, I have to get him a chiltons so he can find his way around my car better. He really is a good mechanic, but he needs more time, and it is not free either. Basically he thinks it may be an electrical problem, but is hoping for some direction without having to blindly search.

With 180k on it, and your not having ever changed the timing belt, that's something to consider.

 

However, there's an electrically-related possibility that comes to mind; power that passes through both the ignition and fuel pump relays arrives via a fuse (fusible link) numbered SBF-2, in the main fuse box. I'd suggest looking at that.

[Manarius]

If the timing belt is broke, the car will turn over a lot faster than it normally does.

[ericem]

You can hear the fuel pump when u turn the car on, like a little tick, then u hear somethign spinning with ignition on. But 180k with not timing belt changed most likely is the issue.

[sad4subaru]

EEEEKKKK

well looks like you may have a little work to do. First off, get yourself a haynes manual and forget your freind for a while. The fuel pump does NOT click, it will hum. i hate to say it but your freind doesnt know a thing and should be kept far away from your car.

First thing to do is get the HAYNES manual. Then we can check the fuel pump (pictures help alot) to make sure its getting power.

It can be the timing belt or the fuel pump or some other things, but get the manual first. He should have been able to diagnose either one fairly easily.

How mechanical are you.

 

nipper

I am not mechanical at all. I may have reworded what he said about the sound it makes, but I can assure you he does know what he is doing. I just ordered a chiltons manual for him to reference. The thing is, he really didn't have a lot of time to look. He really was thinking it was the coil pack because he had seen something similar before, but he also said it may be something else. He mentioned the timing belt and the fuel pump. It is really just a matter of him arranging a time to really look around and I still have to wait for the manual to come in the mail. I am really screwed without this car. I am hoping for some insight because I can't afford to not fix it. I am trying to help him with some outside suggestions.

[nipper]

I am not mechanical at all. I may have reworded what he said about the sound it makes, but I can assure you he does know what he is doing. I just ordered a chiltons manual for him to reference. The thing is, he really didn't have a lot of time to look. He really was thinking it was the coil pack because he had seen something similar before, but he also said it may be something else. He mentioned the timing belt and the fuel pump. It is really just a matter of him arranging a time to really look around and I still have to wait for the manual to come in the mail. I am really screwed without this car. I am hoping for some insight because I can't afford to not fix it. I am trying to help him with some outside suggestions.

 

we can make all the suggestions we want, but untill he does the basic diagnosis work, it doesnt mean anything. Anyone can tell the car has no spark, or the timing belt is broken or jumped. If the crank and cam sensors are too far out of synch there will be no spark. If there is a broken belt there will be no spark.

The haynes manual is better then chiltons. If you need the car and the man is busy, take it to another shop.

 

nipper

[sad4subaru]

With 180k on it, and your not having ever changed the timing belt, that's something to consider.

 

However, there's an electrically-related possibility that comes to mind; power that passes through both the ignition and fuel pump relays arrives via a fuse (fusible link) numbered SBF-2, in the main fuse box. I'd suggest looking at that.

I know he checked all the fuses and found them to be fine. I am so stressed over this! There is no way in hell I can afford to take it to a dealer either. I know they would find out the problem, but I don't have that kind of money.

[nipper]

I know he checked all the fuses and found them to be fine. I am so stressed over this! There is no way in hell I can afford to take it to a dealer either. I know they would find out the problem, but I don't have that kind of money.

 

It doesnt need to go to a dealer, just to a local shop. There is nothing special to subaru about the problem your having.

 

Can you tell me if the car sounds differnt when it cranks, does it crank faster then usual

 

nipper

[sad4subaru]

It doesnt need to go to a dealer, just to a local shop. There is nothing special to subaru about the problem your having.

 

Can you tell me if the car sounds differnt when it cranks, does it crank faster then usual

 

nipper

No, it just sounds like it is going to start like always, but it just keep turning over and nothing catches. Pumping the gas makes no difference at all. you can tell by the pedal no gas is even flowing.

[Gnuman]

you can tell by the pedal no gas is even flowing.

 

How, exactly can you tell that by the pedal?

[nipper]

How, exactly can you tell that by the pedal?

 

thats what i was wondering

 

nipper

[OB99W]

you can tell by the pedal no gas is even flowing.

How, exactly can you tell that by the pedal?

I was wondering about the "gas flow" issue back at post #2 of this thread.

See my third question: http://www.ultimatesubaru.org/forum/showpost.php?p=493761

 

Sad4subaru, "pumping the gas" doesn't do much on a car that doesn't have a carburetor with an accelerator pump.

[dxrflyboy]

Check for signal from the crank sensor when you are cranking.

[sad4subaru]

How, exactly can you tell that by the pedal?

Haven't you ever had to pump the gas on any car to help it start? You can tell when there is something happening or not. There is no change in the sound or the feel of the pedal. That's how I know.Maybe I'm wrong, but I do know it isn't even close to catching when I try to start it. It just turns and turns, and that's it.

[OB99W]

Haven't you ever had to pump the gas on any car to help it start? You can tell when there is something happening or not. There is no change in the sound or the feel of the pedal. That's how I know.Maybe I'm wrong, but I do know it isn't even close to catching when I try to start it. It just turns and turns, and that's it.

It would take considerable time to explain accelerator pumps, choke unloaders, etc. and the differences between carburetion and fuel injection. Let's just say that pumping the pedal of a fuel-injected engine doesn't do what it used to with carbs, although many FI systems still have an unloader feature when the pedal is held fully depressed to help clear a flooded engine. I can understand, however, that you can sense how the engine is responding to a starting attempt, including changing sounds and vibration or the lack thereof.

 

Perhaps more on-target, your mechanic should probably concentrate on why there is no spark, since without it the delivery of fuel now is really moot. It's likely that resolving the spark problem will also take care of the fuel. The engine's computer (referred to as an ECU or ECM) has to have proper input to provide correct output. As has already been suggested several times, one of the first things to look at is the timing belt; usually you'll notice a difference in the way the engine sounds while cranking if the belt is damaged/broken (which is why you've been asked about that), but maybe it's not sufficiently obvious. A broken belt is easy to spot, one with missing teeth slightly harder; in a situation where the belt has skipped a few teeth (rarer) the mechanic has to pay attention to detail.

 

As has also already been suggested, the output from the crankshaft sensor should be checked. If the ECM doesn't get that signal, the engine can't start.

 

Your mechanic may indeed be competent, but Nipper's comment shouldn't be ignored; basic diagnosis needs to be done, and if your guy can't (for whatever reason), it's probably time to move on.

[nipper]

Haven't you ever had to pump the gas on any car to help it start? You can tell when there is something happening or not. There is no change in the sound or the feel of the pedal. That's how I know.Maybe I'm wrong, but I do know it isn't even close to catching when I try to start it. It just turns and turns, and that's it.

 

Except that this is a fuel injected car, and the pumping the pedal doesnt have anything to do directly with the delivery of fuel into the enigine. In carberetored car by pumping the pedal you were forcing down the accelrator pump which squirted fuel into the carberator. This was a direct mechanical connection to the fuel system. Now the cable is connected to the TPS and the throttle valve. All you are doing is moving a air flap, the computer is deciding how much fuel the car gets, not your foot. You can still have air/fuel issues and by "pumping" (which comes from pumping the accelerator pump to get more fuel in the car) you are only getting more air in the engine. This works if the car is running too rich or is flodded, but in no way can you tell you have a working fuel pump by this method.

Pulling a wrench since i was 5 with my father, there is no way you can tell that the fuel pump is working by the gas pedal. With a carb on occasion you could here the accelerator pump squirting, but that was only with the engine off, and you were squirting what was in the float bowl.

 

You need air fuel and spark to run a car.

 

You need the car, It has not been running for three days now. Take it to a shop for at least a diagnoses, otherwise i have a feeling this is going to be drawn out for over a week. otherwise we are just beating a dead horse.

 

nipper

[OB99W]

Except that this is a fuel injected car[...]

Since we both said it (but I beat Nipper ), hopefully the point has been made.

[sad4subaru]

It would take considerable time to explain accelerator pumps, choke unloaders, etc. and the differences between carburetion and fuel injection. Let's just say that pumping the pedal of a fuel-injected engine doesn't do what it used to with carbs, although many FI systems still have an unloader feature when the pedal is held fully depressed to help clear a flooded engine. I can understand, however, that you can sense how the engine is responding to a starting attempt, including changing sounds and vibration or the lack thereof.

 

Perhaps more on-target, your mechanic should probably concentrate on why there is no spark, since without it the delivery of fuel now is really moot. It's likely that resolving the spark problem will also take care of the fuel. The engine's computer (referred to as an ECU or ECM) has to have proper input to provide correct output. As has already been suggested several times, one of the first things to look at is the timing belt; usually you'll notice a difference in the way the engine sounds while cranking if the belt is damaged/broken (which is why you've been asked about that), but maybe it's not sufficiently obvious. A broken belt is easy to spot, one with missing teeth slightly harder; in a situation where the belt has skipped a few teeth (rarer) the mechanic has to pay attention to detail.

 

As has also already been suggested, the output from the crankshaft sensor should be checked. If the ECM doesn't get that signal, the engine can't start.

 

Your mechanic may indeed be competent, but Nipper's comment shouldn't be ignored; basic diagnosis needs to be done, and if your guy can't (for whatever reason), it's probably time to move on.

I hear that. Thanks so much for your input. I will let you know how it pans out in a week or two. I have to arrange a time for my friend to really take a good look. He is a busy guy.

[sad4subaru]

How much should I expect to pay for a timing belt?