idosubaru Posted September 19, 2006 Share Posted September 19, 2006 i disagree, replace it once and be done with it, Headgaskets while annoying is not a death kneel for this engine. i agree with you in that replacing the headgasket is a good idea for some. i can drop a grand as i please with no ill effect, not everyone can do that and swapping a 2.2 is cheaper if you can't do it yourself. now...if money isn't an issue then yeah, i'd recommend a head gasket replacement as well. if someone wants to give me thier 2.5L with a blown HG since they think its junk, ill take it gladly. i don't think they're junk at all. you can get $300-$600 selling your used blown headgasket 2.5 if it's still in good condition, which can just about pay for your 2.2 swap. which is part of the cost benefit of the swap for those that care about the $. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idosubaru Posted September 19, 2006 Share Posted September 19, 2006 right on wayne, i do my head gasket jobs in the car every time unless i'm doing a clutch or something. pulling motors takes alot of time for sure and i just hate doing it. but a 2.2 swap can be more economical and a good option for some people...like i mentioned above. and i've never even suggested throwing away a 2.5, they're worth good money and typically pay for half the cost of installing a 2.2. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wayne Boncyk Posted September 19, 2006 Share Posted September 19, 2006 Actually, I think that Subaru may, in the process of trying to fix the HG issues with early 2.5's, have given themselves even more headaches. From my reading of all the 2.5 HG issues both here on this forum and in other places, the early 2.5's had the coolant loop to cyliner failure that was fairly readily fixed by going to their newer HG design. It appears that in later 2.5's they "overengineered" the solution, and they gave themselves more HG failure modes in the process. Sometimes the easiest fixes are in fact the best. I guess I'd qualify my earlier comment to say that I would want a '96-'97 vintage 2.5, if it was about to be sold for scrap.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nipper Posted September 19, 2006 Share Posted September 19, 2006 i agree with you in that replacing the headgasket is a good idea for some. i can drop a grand as i please with no ill effect, not everyone can do that and swapping a 2.2 is cheaper if you can't do it yourself. now...if money isn't an issue then yeah, i'd recommend a head gasket replacement as well. i don't think they're junk at all. you can get $300-$600 selling your used blown headgasket 2.5 if it's still in good condition, which can just about pay for your 2.2 swap. which is part of the cost benefit of the swap for those that care about the $. DAMNIT MAN i used to like you ... don't give them any ideas:grin: *puts up "deposit old 2.5L here*sign* nipper Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wayne Boncyk Posted September 19, 2006 Share Posted September 19, 2006 right on wayne, i do my head gasket jobs in the car every time unless i'm doing a clutch or something. pulling motors takes alot of time for sure and i just hate doing it. but a 2.2 swap can be more economical and a good option for some people...like i mentioned above. and i've never even suggested throwing away a 2.5, they're worth good money and typically pay for half the cost of installing a 2.2. OK. I can see where, if you can't do the work yourself, you might be inclined to do a swap rather than have the HG work done if you are convinced that HGs could be a recurring problem. But have there really been that many cases of repeated HG failure? In my experience (admittedly not a whole lot - I have one car with the 2.5 in it), once the replacement was done, the problem was solved. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wayne Boncyk Posted September 19, 2006 Share Posted September 19, 2006 DAMNIT MAN i used to like you ... don't give them any ideas:grin: *puts up "deposit old 2.5L here*sign* nipper ARRGH! Now you're BOTH doin' it!! SSSHHHH!!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
outbackusjunkus Posted September 19, 2006 Author Share Posted September 19, 2006 ARRGH! Now you're BOTH doin' it!! SSSHHHH!!!!! This car was bought with 14,000 miles on it. Began to knock at 60,000 (piston slap?) and crap for mileage despite regular tune ups and maintaince (timing belts, etc.). Despite good care and catching gasket problems early, she tossed a rod at around 170,000. I know alot of folks would say thats pretty good, but I gotta call B.S.. A well maintained jap car should hit 200,000 easy. Go to a Honda forum and see how many people have this much trouble with one particular motor. I'm glad you have had good luck with your 2.5, but I do NOT trust these engines. 2.5 parts to go cheap coming up, watch the classifieds...or one aluminum boat anchor maybe... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nipper Posted September 19, 2006 Share Posted September 19, 2006 This car was bought with 14,000 miles on it. Began to knock at 60,000 (piston slap?) and crap for mileage despite regular tune ups and maintaince (timing belts, etc.). Despite good care and catching gasket problems early, she tossed a rod at around 170,000. I know alot of folks would say thats pretty good, but I gotta call B.S.. A well maintained jap car should hit 200,000 easy. Go to a Honda forum and see how many people have this much trouble with one particular motor. I'm glad you have had good luck with your 2.5, but I do NOT trust these engines. 2.5 parts to go cheap coming up, watch the classifieds...or one aluminum boat anchor maybe... a well maintained car built TODAY should last 200,000 miles. in 1997 the life expectancy on average was 140,000 miles. You did get good mileage out of that engine. Also remember for every bad engine or car there are many more good ones on the road running well. Fine ill take a boat anchor or two ... nipper Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idosubaru Posted September 20, 2006 Share Posted September 20, 2006 In my experience (admittedly not a whole lot - I have one car with the 2.5 in it), once the replacement was done, the problem was solved. done properly the new headgasket design shouldn't ever fail again. hence nippers "once and done comment". repeated failures are rare and i'm sure due to improper replacement or a mistake. there are the occassional bad blocks after a head gasket replacement (someone recently had it fail on the drive out of the shops parking lot), this happens occassionally and is probably due to too much coolant/oil mixing. that's why "Subiegal" from Subaru, a member here, is always hounding to replace the entire motor and not just the gaskets. i and most others think that's way over the top. these are probably motors that are driven way too long and overheated over and over. headgasket replacement is a fine option, but a swap can be more economical to those that care about that sort of thing. as for the subaru/honda comparison. it's unfortunate you had a bad experience, but it's not that uncommon for even honda or toyota to have issues with New motors either. for the most part they never do, but any manufacturer is subject to issues when introducing a new motor. remember Subaru still made the E81, EA82, EJ18, EJ20, EJ22, and the 2.5 is golden with new headgaskets. all of those motors are insane in terms of reliability and high mileage capability. that's a good track record in my book. that's decades worth of great motors. buying a vehicle who's motor is in the first year or two of production is not the wisest move one can make if they're looking for 200,000 or more trouble free miles. not to say it can't happen, as it did with the EA81, EA82, EJ22....but still risky no matter the manufacturer. fix the headgasket issue and move on, it's annoying but you'll end up with a great vehicle. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the_bard Posted September 20, 2006 Share Posted September 20, 2006 Ok... I gotta toss another wrench in the conversation. One of the huge reasons I love the '95 EJ22 that's sitting in my '97 OBW is the peace of mind that comes with a non-interference design. My timing belt heads south without me (or the tensioner, etc.), and I'll be stuck on the side of the road waiting for the wife to bring me some extra tools, a replacement belt, the Chilton's, and a printed topic from the USMB. Much better than waiting on the side of the road for the wife to drop off a new engine Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
outbackusjunkus Posted September 20, 2006 Author Share Posted September 20, 2006 fix the headgasket issue and move on, it's annoying but you'll end up with a great vehicle. I can't..Motor is seized. I understand the 2.5 can be good, usually, but once bitten for me. 95 2.2 is in the truck, ready to go for the weekend, harvested from a "freshly killed" 95 at legacy. EGR and dual exhaust ports as advertised. Now...time to prepare...where's that cooler... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nipper Posted September 20, 2006 Share Posted September 20, 2006 fix the headgasket issue and move on, it's annoying but you'll end up with a great vehicle. I can't..Motor is seized. I understand the 2.5 can be good, usually, but once bitten for me. 95 2.2 is in the truck, ready to go for the weekend, harvested from a "freshly killed" 95 at legacy. EGR and dual exhaust ports as advertised. Now...time to prepare...where's that cooler... its always those little details they leave out, a seized motor is a entirely new ballgame. nipper Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wayne Boncyk Posted September 20, 2006 Share Posted September 20, 2006 Yup - although his earlier comment "...tossed a rod" probably should have given us a clue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nipper Posted September 20, 2006 Share Posted September 20, 2006 Yup - although his earlier comment "...tossed a rod" probably should have given us a clue. Like we pay attention to what happened 4 pages ago nipper Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
outbackusjunkus Posted September 25, 2006 Author Share Posted September 25, 2006 Follow up on swap...only problems were... had to use ac bracket off 2.5, and ps lines did not match up to support brackets. Was very surprised how fast and easy this was to do...everything else, air box wiring, exhaust, vacuum lines, etc., pluged right in. Turned the key and.....started right up! Runs and drives like new. I can check back with milage and any codes thrown if anyone is curious, also took a few pics of swap. Want to say thanks to everyone who gave helpful info on how to do this, of all the auto forums I've been on this one has the most helpful and knowledgeable folks around. Thanks again... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Olnick Posted September 25, 2006 Share Posted September 25, 2006 Congratulations, junkus! I'd like to have seen your face the first time you cranked it up--must be a great feeling of pride . . . and relief! By all means keep us up on the "break-in" period. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cookie Posted September 25, 2006 Share Posted September 25, 2006 and frankly there are so many 2.2 lovers here that we applaud you! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnceggleston Posted September 25, 2006 Share Posted September 25, 2006 re: ac bracket you used the ac compressor off the 2.5 motor and needed the 2.5 ac bracket to mount it to the 2.2 motor??? is it possible to use the 2.2 ac compressor?? Follow up on swap...only problems were... had to use ac bracket off 2.5, and ps lines did not match up to support brackets. Was very surprised how fast and easy this was to do...everything else, air box wiring, exhaust, vacuum lines, etc., pluged right in. Turned the key and.....started right up! Runs and drives like new. I can check back with milage and any codes thrown if anyone is curious, also took a few pics of swap. Want to say thanks to everyone who gave helpful info on how to do this, of all the auto forums I've been on this one has the most helpful and knowledgeable folks around. Thanks again... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
outbackusjunkus Posted September 25, 2006 Author Share Posted September 25, 2006 re: ac bracket you used the ac compressor off the 2.5 motor and needed the 2.5 ac bracket to mount it to the 2.2 motor??? is it possible to use the 2.2 ac compressor?? right, 2.5 bracket bolts right up to the 2.2, needed becase the newer compressor has a wider bolt pattern. Everything then lined up perfect...pully, tensioner, belt...even used the 2.2 tensioner because the 2.5's broke during removal. The 2.2 compressor would have worked, of couse, on the motor, but I don't know if the fittings to the car would hook up....do not have 2.2 compressor or the donor car to compare. Thought did not cross my mind since I did not want to discharge my ac....just removed the compressor and held it out of the way while sliding the motor out, plenty of room. didn't even take the hood off... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wiwrx Posted October 16, 2006 Share Posted October 16, 2006 What are my options with a mt 97 2.2l? It is egr-less and I need an exhaust manifold. Is there any way that I could bypass using an egr? -shawn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nipper Posted October 16, 2006 Share Posted October 16, 2006 you can but the egr is part of the defense against ping. Modern EGR systems arent like the pwoer robbing beasts of the 1970's. nipper Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wiwrx Posted October 17, 2006 Share Posted October 17, 2006 you can but the egr is part of the defense against ping. Modern EGR systems arent like the pwoer robbing beasts of the 1970's. nipper I don't really feel like taking off the intake manifold on this motor. what is required to install an egr on a non egr motor? Would I be better off? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FSRBIKER Posted October 17, 2006 Share Posted October 17, 2006 I don't really feel like taking off the intake manifold on this motor. what is required to install an egr on a non egr motor? Would I be better off? Forget it, you need to drill out/tap the port on the head for the EGR pipe...you need to have the head off or engine out to do this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wiwrx Posted October 17, 2006 Share Posted October 17, 2006 Forget it, you need to drill out/tap the port on the head for the EGR pipe...you need to have the head off or engine out to do this. So can I bypass it somehow? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FSRBIKER Posted October 17, 2006 Share Posted October 17, 2006 So can I bypass it somehow? Can you explain a little better what you are trying to do. From what I gather it's put a 2.2 non-EGR into your 98 Outback right? Drilling and tapping for the EGR was pretty easy, you just have to take your time and have the right tap...I have the tap if you want to buy it for half what it costs since I doubt I'll ever use it again, or have a local machine shop do it for you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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