Bserk Posted January 13, 2007 Share Posted January 13, 2007 Hey all. Ive been reading the forums tonight, just found this site and I'm learning a LOT! Forgive me if I havent searched deeply enough yet, but I had to jump in somewhere. Im a long time Nissan tech (nasty word here?) and was looking for a new 'winter rat' to replace my very tired Sentra. Since Nissan abandoned the small 4x4 wagon market long ago, I was looking for a Outback. I found a 'deal' I couldnt refuse as a trade-in at the dealership I work for. 96 Legacy Outback, clean, no rust, 120k mi, its the 2.5L dohc. A deal because it was diagnosed with a blown head gasket at another shop before it was traded. I paid 850 bucks for this, so I dont think I can get hurt too bad.....Ive repaired about anything that Nissan has thrown my way for almost 30 years, so Im confident i can handle this. A little weird dealing with cylinders that go sideways..LOL! Most of the rest of the car is very typical of Japanese/Nissan, so I feel comfortable working on this. Is there anything 'typical' of a head gasket failure on this car? Will I likely need to have the heads resurfaced? Is it common for the heads to crack? (I seem to have read that elsewhere once) Most importantly, and Ive seen different opinions of this, will I be removing the engine or can I pull the heads in the car? Ive already got a CD service manual for the car and it tells me I do not have to pull the engine... as i said, I have not searched the site completely so forgive me if this is all covered somewhere. Great site and Im glad I found it!! I will be diving into this project in the next couple days and any comments will be greatly appreciated. Ive driven a lot of front and four wheel drive rigs, from Suzukis to Mitsubishi, and a lot of Nissans...even a Jeep or 2....(aghhh!!) but this is my first Subie, although Ive been a fan for decades. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
porcupine73 Posted January 13, 2007 Share Posted January 13, 2007 Hello and welcome! Sounds like a pretty nice buy. Plus the dohc that should make a little better power. Will I likely need to have the heads resurfaced?You could at least have them checked for warpage. If it was overheated enough they might be warped.Is it common for the heads to crack? (I seem to have read that elsewhere once)I don't think so, unless it was severely overheated.Most importantly, and Ive seen different opinions of this, will I be removing the engine or can I pull the heads in the car?From what I've seen the heads can be removed without pulling the engine. Unless you're pulling the engine to do other things anyway, such as rear main seal and replacing plastic oil separator plate with metal, or replacing clutch if it's an MT, etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnceggleston Posted January 13, 2007 Share Posted January 13, 2007 they say you can do it in the car, heads that is , but if you've been working on nissans for 30 years, you're not young and neither is your back. subie heads are not on top of the engine hehehehe! so be prepared to leeeeeeean over. i've never done either. since you're the mechanic pull the engine , some here brag it can be done in 90 minutes. but i'll bet not on his first try. never the less it's not hard. especially if you have experience and TOOLS / SHOP. if you were not a mechanic i would suggest finding a good 96 2.2L engine to drop in. the 2.2 is the premiere subaru engine, non-interferrence, and very likley to go 250 - 300k miles. but since you know your way around an engine, do the gaskets. the timing belts are due at 105k, if not done do that ot , as well as the water pump and any idlers for the belt. oh yeah, don't for get the o-ring behind the oil pump and oil seals(cam?) on the front of the engine. after this you won't have to go back into it for 100k miles. maybe valva cover gaskets too. if you do pul the engine check the oil seperator /baffle plate on the rear. on the other hand, just replace the gaskest and drive it until ......... if you get 10k miles it will be money well spent. (2.5L engines are interferrence) a recent post told of 146k miles on original t-belt. good luck, and welcome on board. john 95 2.2L legacy sedan 175kmiles 97 2.5L outback wagon 111k miles 90 NISSAN PICK UP 179K miles (original clutch) i love my truck!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill90Loyale Posted January 13, 2007 Share Posted January 13, 2007 Bserk- You've found the right place for help. Start with helping yourself to the search function for New Gen (where you are now). Find "Search this Forum", then "Advanced Search" then type in "Head Gasket Failure" or any other three-word or two-word combo of words related to blown head gasket. Step by painful step, you'll find enough advice to write a book about it. Here's an example to help you get started. You might find the pictures cited in this thread helpful. Best wishes and good luck: http://www.ultimatesubaru.org/forum/showthread.php?t=69717 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bserk Posted January 13, 2007 Author Share Posted January 13, 2007 I planned to do the timing belt, etc. it would be nuts not to do that at 120k if its apart anyway.. Not sure how carried away I want to get with this car...I know I bought it cheap, but Im going out on a limb here, I havent even driven the thing...is the rest of the drive train bullet-proof? I dont wanna sink a lot of money in a sinking ship, if you get my drift. The body is amazing....I think Subaru did there homework as far as NE winters, better than many, including Nissan.. Thanks to you 3 for the input. Greatly appreciated. And Johnceggleston, I am like the grand master of Nissan Hardbodys... I bought a SE V6 4X4 from California last year, just to get a rust free version. Its NOT gonna see salty winters up here.....thats what the Outback is for! But if you need any advice on that rig, let me know! (Im sure thats not a topc for this board but we can take it elsewhere) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
porcupine73 Posted January 13, 2007 Share Posted January 13, 2007 is the rest of the drive train bullet-proof?Well it could have the somewhat dreaded torque bind, but it'd need to be operable to find that out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bserk Posted January 13, 2007 Author Share Posted January 13, 2007 somewhat dreaded torque bind, ??????? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnceggleston Posted January 13, 2007 Share Posted January 13, 2007 I planned to do the timing belt, etc. it would be nuts not to do that at 120k if its apart anyway.. Not sure how carried away I want to get with this car...I know I bought it cheap, but Im going out on a limb here, I havent even driven the thing...is the rest of the drive train bullet-proof? I dont wanna sink a lot of money in a sinking ship, if you get my drift. The body is amazing....I think Subaru did there homework as far as NE winters, better than many, including Nissan..Thanks to you 3 for the input. Greatly appreciated. And Johnceggleston, I am like the grand master of Nissan Hardbodys... I bought a SE V6 4X4 from California last year, just to get a rust free version. Its NOT gonna see salty winters up here.....thats what the Outback is for! But if you need any advice on that rig, let me know! (Im sure thats not a topc for this board but we can take it elsewhere) the only other weakness, if you can call it that is the mentioned torque bind. first check to see if the "AT OIL TEMP" light flashes 16 times just after start up. if so your "duty c" solenoid is bad, (94$ from the dealer, pull the rear extention housing on the trans, and install new solenoid / valve body.) then, when turning in tight circles it feels like 'locked front hubs' on a 4x4. it shudders and jumps, you have torque bind. could be caused by mismatched tires not or properly inflated. there is a fuse you can 'install' under the hood, passenger side, behind the strut tower, marked FWD. (if the cap is still there.) put any fuse in there and it should become front wheel drive and the torque bind will go away. if so, this means the duty c is still working but the clutch pack could be shot. (850$ installed at the dealer.) your next step is to try new a/t fluid. if you have torque bind, don't drive it very much unless you plan on spending the 850$. if it's not the solenoid, and you catch it in time, new fluid may help. i think they redesigned the solenoid valve body in mid 97. yeah, i'm confused and tried too. john Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
porcupine73 Posted January 13, 2007 Share Posted January 13, 2007 Yes, but ok, maybe it's more than somewhat dreaded. It's talked about some amount on the suby boards. For AT's, it happens when the 'transfer case' (clutch pack in rear extension housing of the AT) kind of cold weld together. There's also a solenoid in the AT (the duty c) that if it fails will cause torque bind. With torque bind the vehicle will kind of bind up when turning especially in tight turns, or it may feel like someone is stepping on the brake when turning. Sometimes a series of ATF changes corrects it; otherwise the clutch pack can be replaced. Rather than torque bind, sometimes if the clutches glaze then the AWD doesn't work very well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bserk Posted January 13, 2007 Author Share Posted January 13, 2007 man, I think you have ruined my evening. Yes, it has torque bind, and yes the AT oil temp light flashes... Im getting discouraged more and more. I did drive the car around the lot, after it was flat bedded to our dealer.. I was prepared for the head gaskets, etc, but this stuff??? F**K! anyone wanna buy a 96 Outback? Guess I'll go back to looking for a California Sentra.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnceggleston Posted January 13, 2007 Share Posted January 13, 2007 man, I think you have ruined my evening. Yes, it has torque bind, and yes the AT oil temp light flashes... Im getting discouraged more and more. I did drive the car around the lot, after it was flat bedded to our dealer.. I was prepared for the head gaskets, etc, but this stuff??? F**K! anyone wanna buy a 96 Outback? Guess I'll go back to looking for a California Sentra.... the problem is you don't know if it's just the solenoid or the clutch pack as well. if you get a good rear extention housing (AWD unit) off a bad trans, or gamble on the clutch pack being good and just replace the solenoid. that can be done with out removing the trans, ( you have to let hang down a little.) find a wrecked 95/96 legacy. it has the 2.2L engine. you can address the AWD before you install it . or remove the rear drive shaft. or drive "locked" in 4WD all winter. it will definitely ruin the clutch pack. all 95 - 99 legacys and outback have the same extention housing. go talk "mechaniees" to the tech at the dealer, maybe they can turn you on to a bad low miles trans with a good clutch pack. just ot lift your spirits: More Photos Condition Value Excellent $5,335 Good $4,820 Fair $4,210 Search Local Listings Sell Your Wagon Vehicle Highlights Mileage: 125,000 Engine: 4-Cyl. 2.5 Liter Transmission: Automatic Drivetrain: AWD Selected Equipment Change Equipment Standard Air ConditioningTilt WheelDual Front Air Bags Power SteeringCruise ControlABS (4-Wheel) Power WindowsAM/FM StereoRoof Rack Power Door LocksCassetteAlloy Wheels Optional Single Compact Disc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hotshot Posted January 13, 2007 Share Posted January 13, 2007 Trust us, the car will be worth every dime you put into it. My car also had a fried duty C 'noid when I got it. It was a little expensive to get it running right, but I don't regret it at all. edited to make it sound alittle better Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cookie Posted January 13, 2007 Share Posted January 13, 2007 And a lot of torque bind at that age gets fixed by a fluid change a perhaps limited slip additive. If it were mine I'd change the head gaskets and fluids and drive the heck out of it. I couught mine at about 80,000 miles and did major work, seals, clutch, head gaskets... For the last two years I've changed the oil. I have 132,000 on the sucker now and it runs far better than when I bought it. I expect to sell at 200, 250,000. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bserk Posted January 13, 2007 Author Share Posted January 13, 2007 Well guys, thanks for the encouragment and advice. I went in this morning while the service dept. was closed, put the ole' girl on the lift and went to work. Took me about 2 minutes to decide I wasnt going to try getting the heads off in the car, so out came the engine. Piece of cake compared to most Nissans! So the engine is out and on the stand, pressure washed and drying. Thats as far as I got since I had other stuff to do this afternoon around home. My plan now is to deal with the heads, timing belt, etc., get the thing running and deal with the rest after I can run the thing and see what it needs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nipper Posted January 15, 2007 Share Posted January 15, 2007 man, I think you have ruined my evening. Yes, it has torque bind, and yes the AT oil temp light flashes... Im getting discouraged more and more. I did drive the car around the lot, after it was flat bedded to our dealer.. I was prepared for the head gaskets, etc, but this stuff??? F**K! anyone wanna buy a 96 Outback? Guess I'll go back to looking for a California Sentra.... Now now now. JUst swap out the tranny and youll be fine, or have the AWD replaced for 800-1200 and this car will treat you right for a long long long time. But never buy a car that gets around on a flatbed. nipper Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ranger83 Posted January 15, 2007 Share Posted January 15, 2007 My 97 needed the heads resurfaced. They job was done with the engine in the car - it was not pulled. They were done at 140K and was running well when sold at 187K miles. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bserk Posted January 15, 2007 Author Share Posted January 15, 2007 Now now now. JUst swap out the tranny and youll be fine, or have the AWD replaced for 800-1200 and this car will treat you right for a long long long time. But never buy a car that gets around on a flatbed. nipper LOL....but remember, I bought it for $850....in that price range, they come on flat beds. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnceggleston Posted January 15, 2007 Share Posted January 15, 2007 bserk, you have a private message. LOL....but remember, I bought it for $850....in that price range, they come on flat beds. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3Pin Posted January 16, 2007 Share Posted January 16, 2007 Welcome and glad to hear you took the plunge. I bought two 96's both with known HG failure around the $ range of your outback and they both are running great after the HG work. They both had a bit of a torque bind as well , but that went away on one with a new set of tires and a flush on the other. Don't forget to replace the seperator plate while the engine is out. Obviously any other seals, H2o pump etc, whatever else makes sense. 96 one 171K 96 two 161K Good luck! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bserk Posted January 27, 2007 Author Share Posted January 27, 2007 An update for anyone interested, and a plug for a great Subie dealership. I got the heads back this week, a trusted local machine shop cleaned and checked them and told me all is fine. He told me they were perfectly flat and did not even require resurfacing. Encouraging news.. I know a Nissan head thats been overheated is usually warped, so this tells me the previous owner shut her down as soon as it overheated (as she told me, but I wasnt convinced-LOL) Major reassembly this morning. The service manual that I had picked up had some very confusing/contradictory head toruqe procedures, and not wanting to screw this up, I had our parts manager call the Subaru shop where we had ordered the parts. 5 minutes later, I had the faxxed pages from the Subie manual in my hands, with clear procedures for the head torque. Now that is service! And on a Saturday. They also gave me 20% off on all the parts. Not sure if this is a dealer-to-dealer courtesy, but this was the first time we had dealt with them and I am impressed, especially with the service manual pages being faxxed! They are Goldstien Subaru in Albany NY, and they deserve a plug. I hope thats ok to do here.... So the engine is back together. I had no trouble with the timing belt, it is so similar to doing a DOHC VG engine in a Nissan 300ZX..even the tensioner is a similar design. Next weekend....back into the car! Wish me luck. And thanks again for all the advice and encouragment. This is a great site!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nipper Posted January 28, 2007 Share Posted January 28, 2007 We love to hear how things end. nipper Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zyewdall Posted January 29, 2007 Share Posted January 29, 2007 Yeah, you'll find that on subaru's it's really easy to pull the engine compared to alot of cars, but it's really hard to do the head gaskets in the car -- I did it on an '85 GL wagon, and I wish now that I'd just pulled the engine out to do it instead of leaning over and fumbling with bolts I couldn't see for so long... Well guys, thanks for the encouragment and advice. I went in this morning while the service dept. was closed, put the ole' girl on the lift and went to work. Took me about 2 minutes to decide I wasnt going to try getting the heads off in the car, so out came the engine. Piece of cake compared to most Nissans! So the engine is out and on the stand, pressure washed and drying. Thats as far as I got since I had other stuff to do this afternoon around home. My plan now is to deal with the heads, timing belt, etc., get the thing running and deal with the rest after I can run the thing and see what it needs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bserk Posted February 3, 2007 Author Share Posted February 3, 2007 All back together this morning and running like a clock! After I picked the engine off the stand, I pulled the flywheel and replaced that seperator plate w/ a steel one- something I definitly would have missed if not for all the great advice here. I filled her with coolant and idled for a while, revved it a few times, etc. I let the fans cycle a few times, I saw no bubbles in the radiator, had great heat inside the car...so I took it for a short road test. We had fresh snow last night and the parking lot next to our shop was not plowed. Damn, I had fun over there. LOL! Back on the lift, I see no leaks, and no problems. Sweet! Next: The blown rear struts, and the 'C' solenoid issue. I had to drive it first and convince myself she was gonna 'live' I should have this thing on the road in another week or 2. Then she gets detailed by the guys in that dept. of our shop (they owe me a few favors for keeping their cars alive...) She is gonna look great! Thanks again for this great site and all the great knowledge/advice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Olnick Posted February 4, 2007 Share Posted February 4, 2007 Sounds good, Bserk. Sounds like you might geting hooked!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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