rude Posted July 18, 2007 Share Posted July 18, 2007 Back on 7/7/7 I went to a wedding and had a great time. That evening when we went start the car my wife turned the key and it tried to start, about 20 times before it finally started! Smooth idle. Thought it was a strange fluke and didn’t even try to start it, until Friday the 13th. I noticed a tire needed some air when I went to start it, turned over but no start. Tried 15 more times. Then got a neighbor to listen for the fuel pump, he couldn’t tell so I tried a few more times. We switched places and I stuck my head by the engine and fuel tank couldn’t tell anything, but after 5 more times it started. I drove it to my mechanic. He had it for 5 days but “never recreated any problems”. Any ideas? Fuel pump, relay, spark plug, wires, neutral safety switch? Anybody know the location of the relay? It’s got 100,00 miles. Got a fresh tank of gas on 4th of July. Thanks in advance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cougar Posted July 18, 2007 Share Posted July 18, 2007 My info shows the fuel pump relay under the dash, near the door jamb, on the driver's side. The problem could be the relay. You should be able to hear the pump by sitting in the car and listening for the pump to turn on briefly when turning the key to the RUN position. The pump is in the tank. If the tech can't locate the trouble I would carry a can starter fluid in the car and when the trouble occurs again spray a small amount of the fluid into the intake and see if that helps get the engine running. This is a good method to see if the fuel and ignition systems are working. If the starter isn't working when the trouble occurs then you need to check other things for trouble. I am assuming the starter is ok and doing its' job. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
porcupine73 Posted July 18, 2007 Share Posted July 18, 2007 Do you mean it would crank, but not start? Or would it not even crank? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ron917 Posted July 18, 2007 Share Posted July 18, 2007 Was the engine hot when it failed to start? For example, it was driven, then parked for 15 minutes, then cranked but wouldn't start, but started OK after it cooled down for a while. If yes, add crank or cam position sensor to the list of suspects. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nipper Posted July 18, 2007 Share Posted July 18, 2007 If he wouldnt crank, it needs starter solenoid contacts, an easy thing to do. If it cranked and wouldnt start (it takes air spark and fuel to run.. why does everyone blame the fuelpump) i woudl suspect the crank position sensor or the engine temp sensor. nipper Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rude Posted July 18, 2007 Author Share Posted July 18, 2007 First off thank you all for responding to a Subaru in need! I'll look for the relay, is it a common problem? I remember reading about it somewhere in the forums. Good idea on the starter fluid, I will pick up a can for the car today. -------------------- Starter seems fine, it cranks great, but when the key is released it stops (no sputtering). I can turn it over for 10 seconds straight, then let go and it instantly stops. -------------------- Not hot, been sitting for 6 hours when I went to start it ~11pm on a flat on-street parking spot. Then it sat for 6 days til I tried to restart it ~4pm parked flat on my gravel driveway. -------------------- Wish it were a cranking problem, but this is a little strange. Checked engine temp sensor – seems good. Should I add crank position sensor to the list? It was cool when it would not start. -------------------- Tried moving the shifter to drive, then back to park, when not starting, no change. Next time I plan to open the gas cap to see if there’s vacuum built up in the tank. I still plan to keep an eye on the fuel and spark system. Thinking fuel since it idles fine and does not seem related to being wet. Speaking of which, never noticed this problem until my mechanic detailed it (degreasing the engine with chemicals and high pressure water July 2nd). Then again, I’ve had it for about a month now, driven it only about 10 times and it sat for the 6 months prior to me taking possession. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nipper Posted July 18, 2007 Share Posted July 18, 2007 The crankshaft position sensor can drive you nuts. Dont use starter fluid. The next time it happens you need to see if you have spark. There are a few posts like yours where it has turned out to be a sensor, either the temp sensor or the crank sensor. You say the ecu temp sensor is fine? How can you tell? Have the codes been pulled off the car? The ECU and CTS wont throw codes unless the car is running. If they fail on startup the code wont register. nipper Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
porcupine73 Posted July 18, 2007 Share Posted July 18, 2007 Also just a comment about the engine coolant temp sensor, to be a little cautious if you put the key to run with that sensor unhooked. When I did that, both the main and sub radiator fans came on, which I was not expecting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nipper Posted July 18, 2007 Share Posted July 18, 2007 Also just a comment about the engine coolant temp sensor, to be a little cautious if you put the key to run with that sensor unhooked. When I did that, both the main and sub radiator fans came on, which I was not expecting. Makes perfect sense to me. The car cant tell how hot it is, so to be on the safe side it turns on both fans. nipper Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
porcupine73 Posted July 18, 2007 Share Posted July 18, 2007 Yes it does make sense that the fans would come on as that is the failsafe. I'm just glad I didn't have my hand or any tools down in there or anything at the time. This was with just putting the key to run, not start or with engine running. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rude Posted July 18, 2007 Author Share Posted July 18, 2007 The temp sensor was my mechanics first thought, as he had replaced one in my 95 Legacy when it had a check engine light. He said he scanned the Forester and there were no recorded problems (freeze frames), he read 93°F from the coolant sensor, which was reasonable for the time. Found out the ignition system relay (Is this the fuel pump relay?) and the neutral safety switch are the same for my Legacy 95 as this Forester, maybe I could try swapping some parts. I’ve seen fuel pumps for ~$50 and new crankshaft position & temp sensors are only $25 each. (If you think of a tank of fuel costing $50, these parts seem cheap, just hope I don’t have to buy too many.) I still wonder if it will turn out to be something as simple as the factory security system disabling the start. Instead of starting fluid maybe I should get an extra spark plug. When it doesn’t start I can remove a wire and put it on the test plug. Shouldn’t require any tools. Any thought about the fuel pressure regulator? Been looking at a Subaru parts sight for anything starting with “Fuel”. Thanks Porcupine73 – I’ve seen reattached fingers because a shady tree mechanic didn’t realize the fan would spin up when a sensor was removed. I’ll be careful, only Subbie war wounds so far are from transmission plug unexpectedly letting loose under heavy force. (frame parts might be rusty, but can still be sharp) Rude Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nipper Posted July 18, 2007 Share Posted July 18, 2007 Fuel issues usually come up on acceleration or load. You dont have a fuel problem. Instead of buying a plug, buy a spark tester. Its like a plug, just specifically made for this purpose (read no OWOWOWOW). Where are you finding $25.00 position sensors? nipper Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cougar Posted July 18, 2007 Share Posted July 18, 2007 The answer to your question about the ignition relay and fuel pump relay is they are seperate relays. Each supplies power to those areas though the fuel pump relay circuit may go through the ignition relay also, I'm not sure. As far as using starter fluid to see what is happening, to me it is the easiest thing to try first. If you don't get any reaction from the engine using it then there is most likely a ignition problem. You don't need two people to check the results either. You can decide what you want to do on that but I would be using the fluid as a first check. To check for ignition trouble I recommend you first check some key points on the ignition that has 12 volt power running to it. Then check those points when the trouble happens using a meter or test light. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rude Posted July 20, 2007 Author Share Posted July 20, 2007 First off, no “hard to start” situations to report from the last few days (Ya!). The $25 sensors are from Jason at Mike Scarff Subaru of Auburn. I think his number is 1-866-528-5282, then ask for Jason in parts. You can search for parts (and prices) at www.1stsubaruparts.com though I did not find fuel pump relay for my forester. Got a friend with a spark tester but it puts a hole in the wire, and obviously will not test the plug. I’ll still need a hand turning the key. I can see your point about being able to use the starting fluid without an extra person. Sorry for the delay in my response, but I am: RUDE Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheYeti Posted July 20, 2007 Share Posted July 20, 2007 When was the fuel filter last replaced? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cougar Posted July 20, 2007 Share Posted July 20, 2007 One thing I have found to work well to look for spark getting to the plugs is using one of the pocket size testers that checks for AC on household power lines. They don't make a physical contact with the copper wire, they just need to be close to it in order to work. They will show a response when it is within a foot of a ignition wire. They cost about $20 dollars and are available at hardware stores. Starter fluid is still the best trick I think. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rude Posted July 24, 2007 Author Share Posted July 24, 2007 It’s been a week with no “hard to start” situations! I’m sure the moment my wife takes it out it will not start. Got an electronic RPM induction measuring thingy from a friend, but no chance to use it, yet. Been driving it about every other day. Not sure about the fuel filter but no stumbling when I call for lots of fuel, petal to the metal. Rude Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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