dtaffe Posted January 5, 2008 Share Posted January 5, 2008 My engine overheated this morning on the way to work, ironically in subzero weather (99 outback wagon, 120,000 miles). About 10 minutes after I started it, within 2 miles of driving the temp guage climbed all the way to the top. I pulled over and idled, and it dropped back to normal (mid-guage), within 15 seconds, while the engine was running. However, about 10 miles later it started to creep up again, and I had to nurse the car for about 5 miles, coasting as much as possible, even shutting it off for a minute here and there to keep it from overheating. I brought it to a garage around the corner from work, and they said it needed a new thermostat and a coolant flush (seems reasonable. They said one of the radiator hoses was hot, but the other cold, thermostat wasn't opening...) While replacing it, they say the looked in the water pump and that the fins are fine, it spins "a little too easily" but seemed to be tied into the drive belts. They put a new thermostat in, but that didn't work, so they guessed it was a dud and tried another. At that point it worked while in the garage (both hoses became hot, engine temp stayed normal), but when they took it out for a test drive, it started acting up again. When he brought it back, he rechecked and one hose was now cold again. The mechanic is at a loss (not my usual guy, but I'm stuck 20 miles from home). Any thoughts? Help! Danny Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tcspeer Posted January 5, 2008 Share Posted January 5, 2008 You may have air trapped. When engine is cool take radiator cap off and start engine with the heater on, add coolant to radiator every time the level goes down just a bit. Its always tough to get it filled back up right after changing the thermostat. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frag Posted January 5, 2008 Share Posted January 5, 2008 i'm only answering cause you're in a hurry and i seem to be the only one at the screen at this hour. Wait for more knowledgeable answers if you can, but your have most of the symptoms of a busted head gasket. Ask the guy at the garage to look for bubbles in the overflow thank and/or exhaust smell at the radiator. Is the coolant gushing out of the overflow thank? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nipper Posted January 5, 2008 Share Posted January 5, 2008 Sounds like the shop doesnt know subarus well. !st thing is that it needs to be a subaru t-stat. 2nd i would replace the cap. Next i would make sure there is no air bubble in the cooling system (fill the system extreemly slowly with the enigne running and hot). If there is still a problem (how is the overflow tank) test the radiator for combustion gasses. Now if this was in your driveway I would say look for bubbles in the coolant. Congratulations on watching the temp gauge and knowing enough to baby the car. Even if it is a HG, you have saved your engine nipper Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WAWalker Posted January 5, 2008 Share Posted January 5, 2008 frag nailed it. Don't let them sell you a radiator next. You have already had enough of a wallet flushing. Have it checked for hydrocarbons in the cooling system. Or just smell the coolant to see if it smells like exhaust. You can always hope it is not head gaskets, but don't throw money at unless you can rule out head gaskets. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dtaffe Posted January 5, 2008 Author Share Posted January 5, 2008 i'm only answering cause you're in a hurry and i seem to be the only one at the screen at this hour. Wait for more knowledgeable answers if you can, but your have most of the symptoms of a busted head gasket. Ask the guy at the garage to look for bubbles in the overflow thank and/or exhaust smell at the radiator. Is the coolant gushing out of the overflow thank? I looked at the engine shortly before reaching the garage and noticed coolant on the top of the overflow tank and some under the car (< a quarter cup, not actively dripping). The overflow tank was initially quite full (and looked dirty), but then it dropped closer to empty and I was able to fill it (nothing more had leaked out underneath.) When I asked the mechanic about any leaks, he said they hadn't seen any. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WAWalker Posted January 5, 2008 Share Posted January 5, 2008 The overflow tank was initially quite full (and looked dirty), but then it dropped closer to empty and I was able to fill it (nothing more had leaked out underneath.) Another classic symtom of bad head gaskets. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tcspeer Posted January 5, 2008 Share Posted January 5, 2008 Why head gaskets? After the themostart was changed the radiator was filled and Mec. says they was no leak, even if headgasket was shot wouldn't the engine stay cool untill the water is leaked out or evp.? It sound more like the first themostart was stuck causing the engine to get hot, and then after it was changed the coolant was not refilled the correct way, allowing it to get hot again because of the trapped air. I am not stating this as a fact just more of a question, can the engine get hot if gasket is bad before the coolant has left? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nipper Posted January 5, 2008 Share Posted January 5, 2008 The coolant is pushed out of the radiator by combustion pressures. When the car is moving, you do not notice this as it is sprayed all over the road. Subaru HG leaks are very hard to diagnose at first. You usually need to have the engine hot to test for combustion gases, or a pressure test of the cooling system when hot. Also they tend to be one way leaks at first. The combustion gasses at 1000's of PSI will push through, but the coolant pressure of 14 psi wont push back into the cylinder. This is why Subarus dont make a smoke screen like some cars do when the blow a HG. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WAWalker Posted January 5, 2008 Share Posted January 5, 2008 can the engine get hot if gasket is bad before the coolant has left? Absolutly. The head gaskets are allowing combustion to leak into the cooling system, causeing an "air pocket". Thermostat won't open. Coolant won't flow. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tcspeer Posted January 5, 2008 Share Posted January 5, 2008 Maybe the heads need to be on the top of the engines like the old 235cu in. chev. engines that way you could see the leak more easy. At least on them you could see the coolant on engine or water in the engine oil. The coolant is pushed out of the radiator by combustion pressures. When the car is moving, you do not notice this as it is sprayed all over the road. Subaru HG leaks are very hard to diagnose at first. You usually need to have the engine hot to test for combustion gases, or a pressure test of the cooling system when hot. Also they tend to be one way leaks at first. The combustion gasses at 1000's of PSI will push through, but the coolant pressure of 14 psi wont push back into the cylinder. This is why Subarus dont make a smoke screen like some cars do when the blow a HG. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crazyhorse001 Posted January 5, 2008 Share Posted January 5, 2008 Something just a tad more simple. How old was your coolant? Was it the correct mixture? I'm asking because, along with HG's this is a classic symptom of the radiator freezing up. The car overheats, the pressure pushing coolant out the overflow. Let it thaw, and it draws coolant back in, leaving the bottle empty. Being a "side tank" radiator, it can freeze partially & still flow minimal amounts of coolant. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idosubaru Posted January 5, 2008 Share Posted January 5, 2008 this sounds very head gasket like but you want to make sure it's not something simple - air in the system, non-subaru tstat, clogged radiator, leak/loss of coolant, fans not coming on...etc. Have it checked for hydrocarbons in the cooling system. i've seen EJ25's with bad headgaskets pass this test and i think i've seen others mention it on here as well. same goes for compression tests too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crazyhorse001 Posted January 5, 2008 Share Posted January 5, 2008 +1 for EJ25's passing a compression check with blown HG's My 97 has compression within 10lbs on all 4 cyl, and definately blown HG's Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silverracerkh2005 Posted January 5, 2008 Share Posted January 5, 2008 Three words replace head gaskets. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dtaffe Posted January 5, 2008 Author Share Posted January 5, 2008 Three words replace head gaskets. Thanks to everyone for the advice. Here's the plan: First thing is to move it from the current garage (picked by emergency and location,) since they seem at a total loss. I had decent luck fixing the viscous coupling at a local SB dealer (they couldn't diagnose it, but you-all did, and when I brought it, they agreed and fixed it. I'll suggest to them that I'm concerned it's the HG, based on comments here and symptoms/lack of improvement with a new thermostat. On a side-note, it sounds as though this is going to cost somewhere between $1500-2000. In the past year I've had to spend about $2500 on repairs (viscous coupling, plugs/wire/coil, other odds and ends), and I'm now waiting for the next shoe to drop. Assuming the engine hasn't cracked from the blown HG, how much life can I expect from this car, and what's a reasonable amount to spend per year on repairs (unfortunately, I don't have the skills, tools, space or time to do them myself, which ups the cost)? I'll let you know what I find in the end. Danny Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
msmithmmx Posted January 5, 2008 Share Posted January 5, 2008 From what you are describing you have a blown head gasket. I am 99% sure of this, as stated before you need one test to confirm this. Have the shop test the coolant for hydro-carbons. There are cases where a compression test will not catch a VERY slow head gasket leak so do not pay 200 bucks for one and have them tell you they found nothing so it must be your radiator and 600 bucks later it is still broke. DON"T DO IT. The question for you, do you want to sink to 2 G's into this car? I would swap the engine for a 2.2. With a busted head gasket the car is worth 700 to 800. Just the truth here Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dtaffe Posted January 5, 2008 Author Share Posted January 5, 2008 From what you are describing you have a blown head gasket. I am 99% sure of this, as stated before you need one test to confirm this. Have the shop test the coolant for hydro-carbons. There are cases where a compression test will not catch a VERY slow head gasket leak so do not pay 200 bucks for one and have them tell you they found nothing so it must be your radiator and 600 bucks later it is still broke. DON"T DO IT. The question for you, do you want to sink to 2 G's into this car? I would swap the engine for a 2.2. With a busted head gasket the car is worth 700 to 800. Just the truth here Thanks for the input. When I told the shop I was flatbedding it to the dealer and probably needed a new head gasket (the dealer quoted $800 for one side, $1800 for both...) he suggested I put a used engine in instead. I initially thought he might be trying to keep the business for himself, but based on your reply above, maybe that's not a bad idea? What would I expect to pay to have the engine replaced? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
msmithmmx Posted January 5, 2008 Share Posted January 5, 2008 Regarding the engine replacement, on this forum some of us do them ourselves so the cost is low, total job might cost 300 to 500 dollars for parts. If you have shop do it your looking at 1500 for the motor and 1000 dollars in labor would be mu guess. I would not go with a 2.5 replacement I would use the 2.2. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WAWalker Posted January 5, 2008 Share Posted January 5, 2008 Do not put a used 2.5L engine in without replacing head gaskets, seals, water pump..........................you will just have the same problems down the road. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WAWalker Posted January 5, 2008 Share Posted January 5, 2008 this sounds very head gasket like but you want to make sure it's not something simple - air in the system, non-subaru tstat, clogged radiator, leak/loss of coolant, fans not coming on...etc. i've seen EJ25's with bad headgaskets pass this test and i think i've seen others mention it on here as well. same goes for compression tests too. He has had the t-stat replaced twice. You would hope the system was blead of air properly once. There were no leaks found....................... I am one who has said that the HC test does not always show positive. And that a copression test will never result in a positive diagnoisis of failed head gaskets. I have alway said, if you want a positive diagnoisis you have two or three choices. HC test or cylinder leak down test, or smell and residue in coolant recovery bottle. But if diagnoisis is being done buy someone with little or not experiance with this head gasket issue. None of these tests are 100% I feel for people in this situation. I just finished a HG job Thursday. Same deal............They paid someone eles to flush the cooling system, replace the thermostat, upper and lower radiator hoses, and radiator cap......................... On these cars it is just easier a probably cheaper in the long run to just get the head gasket diagnoisis out of the way from the get go. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nipper Posted January 6, 2008 Share Posted January 6, 2008 Do not put a used 2.5L engine in without replacing head gaskets, seals, water pump..........................you will just have the same problems down the road. Agreed. They are great engines, but as long as its out of the car do all the work and be done with it. Even with a 2.2 You should do everything short of the HG before you install it in the car. nipper Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Dude Posted January 6, 2008 Share Posted January 6, 2008 I advise you be to very cautious with engine replacment. I have read some real horror stories involving used engines. In fact, I have my own horror story involving a "remanufactured" engine installed in one of my cars. The cheapest thing to do is to have head gaskets replaced on your engine. When done properly, and using the latest rev genuine Subaru head gaskets, the results have been extremely good. You have a nine year old car. How much money do you want to pump into it? At this point, I'd say the least amount possible to keep the car safe and running. Have you abused your engine? Have you had the oil changed on schedule? Is it burning excessive amounts of oil? No? Then it should be in pretty good shape. Why take a risk on a more expensive used engine that you know nothing about? Replacing the head gaskets is the easiest, possibly surest, and cheapest way out. Good luck. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
msmithmmx Posted January 6, 2008 Share Posted January 6, 2008 I agree, you have a 9 year old car, do you want to spend 2 G's on it. That's the HG job with all the trimmings. But please don't let some dealer or garage steal it for 200 bucks to take it off your hands. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idosubaru Posted January 6, 2008 Share Posted January 6, 2008 do not replace one headgasket (i can't believe they quoted a price for just one), and do not get a used EJ25. head gaskets can be replaced for around the $1,200 mark, call around and see if there are any subaru shops (not dealers) locally. my dealer charges $1,500 for both. if you can find someone willing to do it an EJ22 swap it can be cheaper. it's a very easy swap and you can find tons of information on here about it. you should be able to find an EJ22 for $500 or less (i picked up an EJ engine for $150 last year). pay someone $500-$750 to install and sell your EJ25 for $500 (yes you can get that for one with blown headgaskets - they are in high demand due to the head gasket failures). you could get out of this with some organizational work and $500-$750....and no more EJ25 worries. i see more EJ25's with internal failures than EJ22's...and that includes EJ22's that are older with higher miles (since they came out 5 years before the EJ25). rarely do i see EJ22's with bad bearings or thrown rods. so why not pay less and have less worries down the road? here's the thing - you've essentially been faced with the two most expensive, although rare (particularly the viscous coupling), repairs on this car. that's bad...but now that they are out of the way this car should last a long time...assuming it's in decent shape. if it's a 5 owner, rusted out, beat down special then none of that applies. but with a proper engine repair/swap you could get another 100,000 miles out of this thing. of course in that time you'll need some minor things like brakes and maybe an alternator or something. CCR is the best Subaru engine rebuilder period, you may want to talk to them. it'll be more expensive but easier and you get a 3 year 36,000 mile warranty with it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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