fluffy Posted April 22, 2008 Share Posted April 22, 2008 We (me and my g/f) bought a 1997 Legacy LSI last year. Probably paid too much, but it was in beautiful shape. The car came with a year "warranty", which consisted of 15% off repairs at the dealer (Saunders Subaru in Colwood/Victoria BC). 8 months after we bought it, it was having trouble starting. They determined it was the battery and replaced it. Somewhere in there, they lost our transmission dipstick... Problem #1. Not such a big deal, I thought. No damage done. They delivered the dipstick to us (2 days later, mind you), but I figured it was a minor slip-up. Problem #2: We've recently been smelling burning oil, and seeing wisps of smoke come from under the car. They determine that it's a leaky seal around the oil pump. We had them fix it, picked it up and drove it home. Well, actually it never made it home. After 15 minutes of driving, I noticed the temp gauge was maxed out. I pulled over, popped the hood, and instantly saw coolant sprayed around near the battery; it seemed to have come from the radiator cap. I called the dealership, and the guy had a truck sent to tow me. He figured the mechanic probably forgot to plug the fans back in. After this call, I figured I'd check the rad level (it had cooled for ~15 mins by then), but the rad cap wouldn't unscrew. The cap would turn clockwise a quarter turn, but wouldn't unscrew at all. Basically it felt like the cap was already unscrewed, even though it still wouldn't come out after that. So the tow truck shows up, takes the car back to the dealer, and I walk home. We didn't get any call for most of a day, so we called and they told us the radiator was 50% clogged and was not related to the previous service. $100 please... We were kinda ticked off, so we told them to hold off for a little bit. We called back later to tell them to fix it for that night, when they told us, "the damage has been done, your headgasket is blown". $3000 please. . . . . Serious raised eyebrows at this point, especially when they went ahead and "unclogged" the radiator before we authorized the repair. We've called and gone in a couple times, and they still refuse to admit any fault. The counter person told me that the rad cap can turn itself when it blows, though that was news to the mechanic. I've spoken to other mechanics, who figure it's too much of a coincidence how this all happened. Sorry for the long story, but I figure it's best to have the complete set of facts. What do you guys figure? If the radiator cap was not tightened, could the car overheat to the point of blowing a head gasket? Can the rad cap unscrew itself when under pressure? Thanks, and again sorry for the long story Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idosubaru Posted April 22, 2008 Share Posted April 22, 2008 this is really hard to say and there's no way to conclusively determine anything. first you need to make sure that it just didn't get an air pocket in it. how do they know it's headgaskets? did they test it? did they get all the air pockets out? EJ engines are a little tricky (not that hard, but harder than older subaru engines) to get all the air out of the system. they can overheat for unknown reasons if all the air isn't out. sounds like you need to get the car away from them and find out for sure what's wrong. maybe it's just low on coolant/air bubble. maybe it's just the radiator...thermostat ($15), water pump...need some facts, there's a lot of randomness here. if it turns out the head gasket is blown that sucks. the for sure sign of EJ25 headgasket failure is bubbling out of the overflow tank once it overheats...even afer turning the car off. are you positive it never overheated before taking it in or acted funny? does anyone else drive the car...wife, child, parent that might have not noticed it overheating prior? unfortunately the EJ25 is a headgasket blower, they fail often enough that it's going to be nearly impossible to prove it's anyones fault. if it was an EJ22 or EJ18, then i'd definitely blame them. but just type in "subaru headgasket" on any search engine and watch the complaints, webpages, etc about it. a nice piece of information would be to know whether or not for the first time you saw coolant all around the battery whether it was from the radiator or overflow tank? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nipper Posted April 22, 2008 Share Posted April 22, 2008 The tranny issue has nothing to deal with blown HG. They misdaignosed the radiator maybe, but it may be clogged from the HG. Here in the USA the HG is 1500 ish to have replaced. I dont know the rate structure in canada. I would still pull the car out and find another shop. nipper Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aircraft engineer Posted April 22, 2008 Share Posted April 22, 2008 15% off huh? BIG WHOOP! You could always try to get it to Smart Service in Shoreline near Seattle (great reputation) like others said - with the 2.5 it isn't IF the HG will go, it's WHEN. The guy I bought my IMP from took a 2000 Lego in for HG and reseal, timing belt, other misc things and it cost him $2700 (US, of course). that's more maintenance than you are describing here that THEY want to do for MORE MONEY. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fluffy Posted April 22, 2008 Author Share Posted April 22, 2008 grossgary: Coolant looked more like it came from the rad cap. They tested the coolant for exhaust vapors to determine it was the HG. Before taking it to them, the car had weekly driven to Duncan, a town ~70k (40 miles) away, crossing a mountain to get to it. No overheating at all until we took it to these guys. I'll check for bubbles in the overflow though. nipper: I was only bringing up the tranny issue to point out that they've screwed up twice on our car. We're already considering a couple other places to take the car, but definately not back there... aircraft engineer: It's about 5 hours from here to Seattle, including about $100 ferry costs. Not worth it, I'm afraid. Got someone else in mind here though. A friend of a friend, so to speak. That or me + my dad + beer Also, the $3k they quoted included a valve job and tax. Still a gouge, though... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idosubaru Posted April 22, 2008 Share Posted April 22, 2008 if the coolant just came out of the radiator cap for sure, then they probably misdiagnosed it. to their defense...it wouldn't be that hard. the EJ25's blow headgasket quite often and when they do the overflow tank gets pressurized and bubbling and sprays water all over the battery area as well. so..it would have looked very much like every other EJ25 head gasket issue. i'd ignore their "hydrocarbon test" for now....maybe it was inaccurate or they're just assuming... "suspicion often creates what it suspects" C.S. Lewis of course there's a chance the headgasket did go...let's hope not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gloyale Posted April 22, 2008 Share Posted April 22, 2008 Was it ever concluded that the fans were left unplugged??? That right there would be the smoking gun for blaming them. If you're car had not overheated from there mistake, the Headgasket would not have blown at this time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fluffy Posted April 23, 2008 Author Share Posted April 23, 2008 It's hard to tell where the coolant came from, especially since both caps had coolant on top of them, and since the rad cap was unscrewed (still don't understand that). It's been cleaned up now, so we'll never know for sure... Gloyale: I checked the fans when they mentioned it, and both were plugged in. They still insist they went nowhere near the rad, although the mechanic mentioned he had to remove the overflow tank... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
schlit Posted April 23, 2008 Share Posted April 23, 2008 It's hard to tell where the coolant came from, especially since both caps had coolant on top of them, and since the rad cap was unscrewed (still don't understand that). It's been cleaned up now, so we'll never know for sure... Gloyale: I checked the fans when they mentioned it, and both were plugged in. They still insist they went nowhere near the rad, although the mechanic mentioned he had to remove the overflow tank... You can rack your brain over what actually happen, but I'd hang my hat on the fact it failed 15 minutes after taking posession of the car. Any other approach will probably not work. Remember, you probably signed an arbritration agreement so no easy way to take them to small claims court. In my experience, all dealers are shady. Check out the new edition of consumer reports, they did a study on it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
True2Blue Posted April 23, 2008 Share Posted April 23, 2008 Bring it to my shop. id fix it right up 3k my @ss juss buy the parts and drop some time and effort cash. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fluffy Posted April 23, 2008 Author Share Posted April 23, 2008 schlit: They didn't have me sign anything at all. Perhaps it works differently here in the Great White North. Good news for me I suppose... True2Blue: Wish I could, but Washington's a bit far to take my car. My Dad's in a hotrod club, so one (or more) of the guys there probably know a good mechanic. Also, it's difficult to buy the parts being a student who's getting married in less than a month Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
montana105 Posted April 23, 2008 Share Posted April 23, 2008 Man cancel the wedding. No really,get another hydro carbon test,you need some facts.Has the car been run since they supposedly unclogged the radiator and what happened if so? I agree that you need not go back to that outfit Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dominical1 Posted April 24, 2008 Share Posted April 24, 2008 For future reference if you have to deal with mechanics in Victoria go to TC Motors on Rock Bay Avenue. They mainly deal with German cars but a couple of their mechanics are Subaru enthusiasts and know their stuff and won't run you around. Good luck in dealing with Saunders. I wouldn't touch them for anything. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fluffy Posted April 25, 2008 Author Share Posted April 25, 2008 montana105: They have driven the car since unclogging the rad, and they tell me it performed poorly. No details beyond that. I will have another hydrocarbon test, though... dominical1: I may give TC Motors a shot. We have 2 other mechanics to consider, one of them being Burt's Auto in Esquimalt, who's been recommended to me twice. Don't know if the guy knows Soobs well though... Do you know anyone else who takes their Soobs to TC? Minor update: I've written a letter to Subaru Canada about this problem. May or may not help. I checked Saunders in the Better Business Bureau, and they seem to have a satisfactory record (even though some locals have told me they're morons). For the record, though, TC also has a satisfactory record., and both have been in business since 1980/1981. Also, the mechanic my G/F wants to use has suggested a radiator stop-leak to temporarily plug the HG problem. Would this even work? *EDIT* nvm, found this... http://www.barsproducts.com/1111.htm Anyone used this before? I'm kinda skeptical... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idosubaru Posted April 25, 2008 Share Posted April 25, 2008 the stop leak stuff typically doesn't help a DOHC EJ25. if you plan on keeping the engine i definitely wouldn't add anything to the coolant. i avoid those kinds of additives and many others suggest to as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edrach Posted April 25, 2008 Share Posted April 25, 2008 Stop leak seems to do more harm than good. Not sure about the newer model radiators but on the earlier subarus the lines inside the radiator were small enough that the stop leak would partially clog the radiator creating more problems. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nipper Posted April 25, 2008 Share Posted April 25, 2008 Stop leak is fine for what it is intended to do. Its been used for eons without issues (where it made things worse there were already problems to begin with). Stop leaks needs heat, pressure, and a temp differential to work. Just floating around in a coolant system it wont do any harm (Unless there is air trapped in it). Stop leak will do nothing for a bad HG or rotary seal leak. nipper Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gloyale Posted April 25, 2008 Share Posted April 25, 2008 I still say if they admit to sending the car out of there shop with the fans not plugged in, it is 100% there fault. The car would bnot have overheated otherwise. The radiator clogged line of BS they are feeding you is crap. Can you get anyone at the shop to admit in writitng or record them saying they forgot the fan plugs??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idosubaru Posted April 25, 2008 Share Posted April 25, 2008 I still say if they admit to sending the car out of there shop with the fans not plugged in, it is 100% there fault. The car would bnot have overheated otherwise. The radiator clogged line of BS they are feeding you is crap. Can you get anyone at the shop to admit in writitng or record them saying they forgot the fan plugs??? he's right, but proving it and getting them to do something about it is going to be tough. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fluffy Posted April 26, 2008 Author Share Posted April 26, 2008 Well, the guy thought they might not have plugged the fans in. I checked before the car went back to them, and they were both plugged in. I think the main problem was the rad cap. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fluffy Posted May 29, 2008 Author Share Posted May 29, 2008 Well, I received a reply from Subaru Canada and from the Better Business Bureau. Subaru says "Please be advised that your vehicle is considerably beyond the parameters of the warranties (by time and by mileage)" which is obvious, of course. As for the Better Business Bureau, they contacted Saunders, who are still claiming a clogged radiator, and the BBB claims "the response from the company adequately addresses the disputed issues and exhibits a good faith effort to clarify the complaint even though the comsumer may remain dissatisfied." The complaint is now considered closed, and will not show up on a BBB inquiry of Saunders Subaru. dominical1: We've called TC Motors, who have quoted ~$1600 for the HG, plus various minor things that should be done (not sure what, as the wife spoke to them). That's $900 less than Saunders, plus they actually sound nice (again, according to the wife). We'll see how well they perform, once I actually have $1600..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
audio_file Posted May 30, 2008 Share Posted May 30, 2008 congrats on getting married! if i read the thread correctly that should've happened in the past few days . . . that car dealership sucks. seriously. i've worked for two large dealerships here in WA and even though i may have questioned their practices from time to time, in the end they always made it right for the customer. either by eating some if not all of the repair costs of a recently sold vehicle with issues, or allowing the customer to return the vehicle if it had it's issues within a reasonable amount of time. even service departments. the morons they hire to work on your cars, if you only knew . . . you'd never trust your car to a dealership again. dealerships recognize this though, and will generally do whatever it takes to "hush up" a disgruntled service customer, because service is where any dealership makes 65-80% of their annual profits (those gouging prices you mention) keep being "the noisy wheel" let them know you're posting your results on a subaru forum that has 23,532 members, each of which have at least 10 folks they can share your experience with . . . and on and on and on. threaten to contact the local newspaper/television station. take out an ad in the local paper describing your ordeal (or at least tell the dealership you will). anything that will be detrimental to their bottom line beyond the simple repair costs of your particular vehicle can be used as a tool in negotiating a satisfactory solution with this stealership don't let the bad guy win. ever. chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1997reduxe Posted May 31, 2008 Share Posted May 31, 2008 That really sucks. It reminds me of certain situations i was in when younger. And knew relatively little about cars. And, being in a place far out in the cold north somewhere and only one company store to depend on. Can you say, Altoona, PA Fiat? the vortex of misdiagnosis versus exponential money flow evil. My question is, they never found the dipstick? So where exactly is it? What a bunch of sheisters. You've only had the car 8 months and they come up with this continually changing story? It makes me think they knew the HG was bad to start with, even before you bought it, and looked for some sucker to "bless" with their 15% off "deal". Now that's service! 3000 dollars? More? There's a 2.2 on ebay right now with 89000 on it for 600 bucks. From a company in Ontario. Search: 220240762604 and you'll see it. Good luck with those heathens. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1997reduxe Posted May 31, 2008 Share Posted May 31, 2008 or better yet, http://www.car-part.com i've seen this posted before here, but not until i just saw it again did i ever look at it. zowie!, that's good stuff... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.