Growling noise, right front, EA car...

[BRAAP]

Newb here with a newly acquired EA car. ’85 GL wagon, 5 speed with Hi/LO 4WD. Previous owner recently installed new half shafts up front, both sides and new brakes up front

 

On to my issue. The car has a growling noise, follows vehicle speed, right front wheel area that I can’t seem to track down. I originally assumed it to be wheel bearings as the half shafts are new. The sound is like a metal on metal rubbing/growl sound, gets very loud and can be felt in the floor board, no clicking or pulsing, just a growling sound. Driving straight down the road, it is very pronounced. Applying the brakes reduces the noise proportionately with pedal effort. During a left hand turn the sound is even more pronounced, during a right hand turn it goes way. The original front wheel bearings felt fine, no slop. With the car in the air, front wheels rotate smooth, no signs of any issue. Inspected for a rubbing rim/wheel, rotor, etc, no signs of any metal contact any where that I could see. I went ahead and replaced the passenger front wheel bearings and inner/outer seals anyhow. I also installed a new ball joint while it was apart.

 

Test drive, no change! The growling noise is still there, same as before, no difference! I am at a loss with this issue as it is seems to be “at the wheel” related, i.e. cornering loads from left hand turn exaggerates it, cornering loads from a right hand turn and it goes away, and brake application reduces it and is proportionate to amount of brake effort applied! The only other things I can think it could be is the new half shaft is bad or the wrong one, or the transaxle itself, though I don’t understand how cornering loads and brake effort would exaggerate/reduce this growl at the trans or half shaft?

 

Paul

[NorthWet]

A possibility is that the axle splines are loose in the hub splines, rubbing as they slide in and out. This can happen if the axle nut is not properly tightened or the dished washer is installed backwards or is not present. What torque value was used to tighten down the axle nut?

[GeneralDisorder]

That's classic wheel bearings - did you remove the axle on the other side and check those as well?

 

Because of the double ball bearing arrangement used in the front of the EA's, bearing noises can change with turning and breaking loads as you describe. They generally don't have much slop that you can feel, and remember when checking for slop you have to release the parking brake as it's on the front calipers and will effectively lock the rotor to the knuckle making it impossible to see any play that might be there.

 

GD

[altrego]

I have a question, I am experiencing close to the same. But when I go over a bump in the road it gets more pronounced for that second. Also the noise is more pronounced at different speeds. And the sound will go away when I turn hard to the right but come right back when I come out of the turn. I'm pretty sure its wheel bearing on the right side. I just don't feel like doing them.

[nipper]

I have a question, I am experiencing close to the same. But when I go over a bump in the road it gets more pronounced for that second. Also the noise is more pronounced at different speeds. And the sound will go away when I turn hard to the right but come right back when I come out of the turn. I'm pretty sure its wheel bearing on the right side. I just don't feel like doing them.

 

Well dont worry, Pretty soon you will need a tow truck, and some one else will do them for you.

 

 

and it wont be pretty.

 

nipper

[BRAAP]

That's classic wheel bearings - did you remove the axle on the other side and check those as well?

 

Because of the double ball bearing arrangement used in the front of the EA's, bearing noises can change with turning and breaking loads as you describe. They generally don't have much slop that you can feel, and remember when checking for slop you have to release the parking brake as it's on the front calipers and will effectively lock the rotor to the knuckle making it impossible to see any play that might be there.

 

GD

 

 

Good point on the parking brake, thank you.

 

Here is more detailed description of the what I found and did thus far in chronological order.

 

 

Acquired the car for the previous owner. He recently installed both front half shafts new/rebuilt, and new front brakes.

 

From the very first time I drove the car, that’s exactly what I thought as well, wheel bearings. A growling metal on metal like sound, coming from the right front of the car, (passenger front wheel), not the driver side. It can also be felt as a tickling buzz in the floor board of the car. Very loud above 35 MPH. Cornering loads during right hand turn it completely goes away. Let hand turn it is more pronounced than driving straight ahead. Apply the brakes the decreases and decreases with more braking effort, i.e. the harder you brake, the less pronounced the growl is, even during a left hand turn.

 

Summation of the issue;

 

1) Growl sound, follows “vehicle” speed, not engine speed, under load, coasting, and decel. Under decel it is a tad louder than under accel.

 

2) Above 25 MPH is noticeable, above 35 MPH is very loud!

 

3) Sound comes from passenger front side of car.

 

4) Growl intensity is directly related to cornering loads and braking effort.

 

5) At full steering wheel lock both directions, driving the car in circles to the point of traction loss, (boy these cars have a tight turning radius), no noises of growl, though the speed attained is not high enough)

 

Diagnosing procedure used;

 

1) Car on the ground, parking brake off. Grabbed both front wheels by hand jerking and yanking moving, etc, trying to notice any slop or abnormalities typical of worn/loose wheel bearings. All felt fine.

 

2) Jacked car up in the air. Parking brake off. Jerked and yanked again, spun wheels slowly and as fast as I could. Pushed on the top and bottom of the tire during spinning to simulate cornering loads as best I could by hand, (thought I’d give it try). Did this with wheels turned to full lock both directions. Nothing abnormal, wheel felt fine, spins smoothly, no issue.

 

3) Removed the front wheel, front brake caliper, axle nut which was VERY tight, (Breaker bar, helper pushing on brakes, finally came loose, flat washer and conical washer were installed and conical washer seated in it matching convex chamfer of the hub).

 

4) Removed the strut tube from lower ball joint and also steering outer tierod from hub.

 

5) Lightly tapped the axle out of the hub to reveal the wheel bearings, (pic below). Notice a shiny wear spot on the cage of the outboard CV, caused from inner dust seal.

 

6) Rolled wheel bearing with fingers, first the outer bearing then the inner bearing. Both passenger front wheel bearings were smooth, no slop.

 

7) Looked at various components for signs of rubbing, inside of rim, brake caliper, rotor, hub, half shaft, etc. No signs of any metal to metal contact on moving or stationary parts surrounding the wheel, brake and half shaft.

 

 

 

Conclusion, at that time… Must be wheel bearings even though “hand inspection” they felt fine.

 

Ok, so I purchased 2 new heel bearings, (had the option of the cheapy $9 or more expensive $19 bearings so I went with the more expensive bearings), inner and outer wheel bearing seals, and control arm ball joint.

 

Procedure of new wheel bearing reinstallation; (being as I am the owner of a custom early Datsun Z car shop, Rusch Motorsports, I already have much of the appropriate tools for such a project). I followed this procedure rather closely;

 

Click ME for "USMB Wheel Bearing R&R thread".

 

 

1) Removed hub assembly from upper strut, used seal puller to remove both inner and outer seals, then used my outer wheel bearing race removal tools, (drift and hammer) and removed both inner and outer wheel bearings. Using the solvent tank, thoroughly cleaned out the bearing cavity in the hub and the spacer that resides between the wheel bearings.

 

2) Packed the new wheel bearings thoroughly with wheel bearing grease, smeared the bearing cavity in the hub with grease as well. Using my shop press and wheel bearing installation discs, pressed in the wheel bearing, only applying the pressure to the outer race of the bearing during the press procedure, until it was firmly seated in the hub.

 

3) Inserted the bearing spacer.

 

4) Repeated #2 for the other wheel bearing, again only applying force to the outer race of the bearing during the pressing procedure, till the bearing was firmly seated in the hub.

 

5) Installed both new inner and outer wheel bearing seals and applied a thin layer of grease to the seal surfaces to prevent them burning up.

 

6) R&R ball joint on lower control arm.

 

7) Cleaned off the spines and other machined surfaces on the half shaft, applied think layer gears on the machined surfaces and splines, as well as the area where the inner seal rides.

 

8) Covered the greased half shaft parts while reinstalling the hub on the car.

 

9) The half shaft sis not install by hand so I had to use the nut and a variety of spacers to “pull” the half shaft through the new bearings.

 

10) Tightened half shaft nut to 150 ft lbs.

 

11) Reinstalled wheel.

 

 

Test drive and growl is still there, no change whatsoever. Same intensity, same corner and braking loads effects etc!

 

1) Loosed axle nut one cotter pin slot, test dove again, still the same exact growl under the exact same circumstances.

 

2) Retighten axle nut, test drove again, still no change.

 

3) ARRGGHHHHH…..

 

4) ?????

 

 

 

 

[TheSubaruJunkie]

This is a simple fix....

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

....Just get a louder stereo

[BRAAP]

A possibility is that the axle splines are loose in the hub splines, rubbing as they slide in and out. This can happen if the axle nut is not properly tightened or the dished washer is installed backwards or is not present. What torque value was used to tighten down the axle nut?

 

 

Hmm… interesting. As I read your comment about the splines, it dawned on me that the female splines in the wheel hub were "noticeably" worn. Hmmm.. I wonder?....

 

When I removed the axle nut originally, I had a ½” craftsman Breaker bar on it, standing it, (200 lbs out 18” from the center of the nut), and it finally broke loose. Upon reinstallation with the new wheel bearings, I torqued to 150 foot pounds, issue still exists, loosened axle nut a skosh, no change, retightened axle nut, again no change.

 

Could the splines still be sliding/wobbling between the shaft and rotor hub even though the nut is relatively tight? Based on how and when the growl happens, it seems to be an “at the wheel” issue. To me any how, this is the most logical scenario?....

[BRAAP]

This is a simple fix....

 

....Just get a louder stereo

 

 

You know, the thought of installing a flat 6 has crossed my mind. I could just make the exhaust system really free flowing...

[altrego]

Well dont worry, Pretty soon you will need a tow truck, and some one else will do them for you.

 

 

and it wont be pretty.

 

nipper

 

 

Ouch dude, I know this. Thats why I'm driving my IROC till my vacation next week. That way I can make sure to have plenty of time to work on it. But thanks for your blunt honesty. Was just seeing if anyone might of thought it was something else. But thanks for the help there.

[TheSubaruJunkie]

Everything described here is common symptoms for a failing wheel bearing. Ive done more than I care to admit.

 

And nipper is right, if they fail on you, you WILL need a tow truck, and the job WILL be 100x harder.

 

Im as stumped as you are BRAAP. The problems you are describing are sure to be a wheel bearing, but it appears you've already replaced them.

[McDave]

Many times I could have sworn the front bearings were bad on a car when it turned out it was the rear bearings, or vice versa. The best way I've found to get around this is to have someone else drive while you listen from the passenger and rear seats.

[BRAAP]

Everything described here is common symptoms for a failing wheel bearing. Ive done more than I care to admit.

 

And nipper is right, if they fail on you, you WILL need a tow truck, and the job WILL be 100x harder.

 

Im as stumped as you are BRAAP. The problems you are describing are sure to be a wheel bearing, but it appears you've already replaced them.

 

 

Yeah, I replaced the passenger wheel bearings with new ones and a new ball joint, yet the growl is EXACTLY the same and under the exact same conditions as before. I could see if the new bearings were bad that the growl might be a different tone/pitch, under different circumstances, etc.

 

As a brand New Suby owner, wanting to verify that the half shafts that were recently installed are indeed the correct ones, I searched and found this table;

 

 

As I interpret this diagram, my 4WD ’85 carbureted Suby should have the 87-AC half shafts on both sides with 2 ring bands on the shafts, and measure 10.12” between the boots.

 

Driver side half shaft has the 2 ring bands and measures just a skosh under 9 5/8”, (essentially 9.53”), between the rubber boots! Ok so the driver side matches that table says I should have regarding ring band count, yet matches another half shaft in the table in distance between the boots…

 

Now my passenger half shaft has 3 ring bands, yet measures just a skosh under 8 7/8” between the boots. That measurement doesn’t fall into any those listed in table and according the table, (as I interpret it any how), my passenger side half shaft should match my driver side? Could this be the smoking gun?

 

Here is my Driver side half shaft;

 

Here is my Passenger side half shaft;

[McDave]

To get a more accurate measurement you'll need to push the boots outwards until you can see the indentation in the axles that the boots ride in, then compare the distance in the axle L there. One or more boot may have slipped inwards out of the groove.

 

But yeah, it does look like the right axle is wrong judging by the three paddings on it.

[kingbobdole]

If you have some chassis ears, or access to them, I'd use those... otherwise you might try putting it up on stands and getting a stethoscope and listening to the bearings. Just let it run at idle, and make sure to check the side bearings in the transmission as well, but it does sound like a wheel bearing

[nipper]

[BRAAP]

If you have some chassis ears, or access to them, I'd use those... otherwise you might try putting it up on stands and getting a stethoscope and listening to the bearings. Just let it run at idle, and make sure to check the side bearings in the transmission as well, but it does sound like a wheel bearing

 

 

Oops. I left that part out. I did run the car, on jack stands, “twice!”

 

With the car up on jack stands, with the old wheel bearings, ran through 5th gear, 85 MPH on the speedo, NO noise, no growl. Wheels turned to lock at over 50 MPH, no noise or growl. Now as I am turning the wheel to the left, the passenger front would make a slight ticking noise, nothing like the growl while the car is traveling down the road. This happened only AS I am turning the wheel. The faster I turn the wheel, the more pronounced it is. Turning it to the right, no noise whatsoever.

 

Earlier today, install, today, car up on jack stands again, (this is with the new wheel bearings), up to 60 MPH in 5th gear, same exact results as before.

[altrego]

I have no idea what it could be man. I hope you find out so I don't have to hunt for it also.

[BRAAP]

I have no idea what it could be man. I hope you find out so I don't have to hunt for it also.

 

I’m leaning towards the possibility of the wrong half shaft in the passenger side causing this growling noise, though I’m not 100% sure I should trust the table posted above regarding which half shafts I have vs. which ones I am supposed to have in this car. Hoping one of the Suby guru’s savvy with half-shafts will chime in.

 

If it is the wrong half shaft and it is too short/long, that might explain the noise I’m experiencing?!?!?

[TomRhere]

Both of you may want to check the rear wheel bearings.

 

My '85 BRAT is making simular noises to what is described in this thread. I bought it roughly a year ago and drove 250 miles home with no issues other than wimpy rear brakes. They needed adjusting, but adjusters were froze up.

 

I opted for the rear disc conversion. When I went to loosen the axle nuts, they were finger tight at best. After the disc install, I torqued the nuts to proper setting. Now,,, I have noise, as in a rumble going straight ahead, and it changes pitch when turning corners.

 

Really doesn't sound like it's coming from the rear either. To me, sitting behind the wheel, it sounds like PS front. Passengers say it sounds like DS front.

 

Pretty sure it's the rears though, just because it didn't do it before the rear disc swap/proper torque on axle nut. Hadn't touched anything else under the BRAT, other than doing oil/filter change and changing out fuel and air filter(s) at that time. Noise started right after doing the rear brakes, like within a 1/2 mile. Can't really see a front bearing giving out, just because I worked on the rear, either.

 

Putting BRAT up on jackstands didn't help in locating source of noise either. No real weight on wheel bearings, so they won't make noise unless they're really bad.

[BRAAP]

Both of you may want to check the rear wheel bearings.

 

My '85 BRAT is making simular noises to what is described in this thread. I bought it roughly a year ago and drove 250 miles home with no issues other than wimpy rear brakes. They needed adjusting, but adjusters were froze up.

 

I opted for the rear disc conversion. When I went to loosen the axle nuts, they were finger tight at best. After the disc install, I torqued the nuts to proper setting. Now,,, I have noise, as in a rumble going straight ahead, and it changes pitch when turning corners.

 

Really doesn't sound like it's coming from the rear either. To me, sitting behind the wheel, it sounds like PS front. Passengers say it sounds like DS front.

 

Pretty sure it's the rears though, just because it didn't do it before the rear disc swap/proper torque on axle nut. Hadn't touched anything else under the BRAT, other than doing oil/filter change and changing out fuel and air filter(s) at that time. Noise started right after doing the rear brakes, like within a 1/2 mile. Can't really see a front bearing giving out, just because I worked on the rear, either.

 

Putting BRAT up on jackstands didn't help in locating source of noise either. No real weight on wheel bearings, so they won't make noise unless they're really bad.

 

 

I think the rear was mentioned earlier in this thread as well. Later today I’ll round up a co-driver and investigate the possibility of it coming from the rear.

 

Thank you,

Paul

[Mikldom]

nobody has suggested it could be the transmission?

 

I have had two different vehicles both with the same problems you describe and it turned out to be the transmission failed... center diff broke a tooth I believe.. still have one of those transmissions in my back yard!!!

 

anyways.. that could always be a possibility when you have checked everthing else out and no problems..

[the_postie]

Worn splines on the hub will cause that noise.

[BRAAP]

Problem FOUND and FIXED!!! WOOO HOOO…..

 

Driver side front wheel bearing.

 

First off, a huge thank you to my lovely wife of 20 years come this November, for her help and having a sense of humor during this diagnoses.

 

After much time hanging out the windows listening, (didn’t hear the growl at all just listening out the windows), with the stethoscope in my ears all over the car as she drove, Transmission, front suspension, suspension pickup points on the car, seat belt mounting points, rear hatch area, etc, the noise showed itself on the drivers side with stethoscope on the lower control arm, T/C rod, and also on top of the drivers strut, while driving. In the car, it still sounded like passenger side. My wife and best friend after driving and riding in the car, were all dead seat on the issue coming from the passenger front, as I was, not the driver side.

 

Any how, removed the old bearings tonight, they were nasty, catchy when trying to free spin them by hand etc. Installed the new bearings, test drive, NO noise or growl whatsoever!

 

Thank you everyone for all your input and to those who kept saying not to overlook other portions of the car because the issue could be somewhere other than where the noise sounds like it is coming from, which was the case here.

[McDave]

You know, I've been chasing a similar problem on my car too and I finally decided it was the right side bearings, even though they have been changed twice by the previous owner and the drivers side never have. I'm glad I ordered enough for both sides! Maybe I'll do the drivers side first.

 

So, how did you manage to crawl all over the car while the wife drove? Is this a mechanic's stethoscope or a Doctor's or what?

(imagination running wild...)