98 Legacy brakes poorly

[etc]

1998 Subaru Legacy, 146K miles, auto, 2.2L

 

Stupid question I know, but I cannot figure out why it brakes kind of poorly. (comes to a stop slower than it should IMO) I figured the front brake pads were gone. Just checked both of them and they are fine.

 

What else could cause slow braking?

 

Do I have to bleed it? If so, what's the sequence?

[Rooster2]

Well it is possible that you have some air in your brake lines, but I would doubt it, unless you let the reservoir level get too low, or you opened up the hydraulic system to do work, which allowed air to enter. If you think you may have air in your system, you can tell because the brake pedal feels real spongie upon applying the brakes.

 

I question if you possibly need a new master cylinder? That would be my suspicion.

 

As far as bleeding the lines, I have been told to start the bleeding sequence at the road wheel farthest from the mc. However, I did not know that last summer, when I used a one man bleeder system to flush out old brake fluid that had the color of ice tea. I simply bled the back brakes, then the fronts. That worked out just fine. I guess in retrospect this could have been bleeding from the furthest point back from the mc.The one man bleeder prevents air from entering the hydraulic lines.

[tcspeer]

Do you have drum brakes on the rear? if so you may need to adjust them. Pull the drums off and and make sure the adjustment star wheel is free.

[idosubaru]

good point, this shoudl have rear drums, have those checked.

 

has there been any recent work done to the car?

did it just start one day or been like this for awhile?

 

the fluid is 10 years old too, good idea to just have it flushed. that helps a ton and should be done anyway.

[etc]

Do you have drum brakes on the rear? if so you may need to adjust them. Pull the drums off and and make sure the adjustment star wheel is free.

 

No, the brake pedal does not feel spongy at all, it just brakes poorly. I have another car for comparison, same sized sedan and it brakes much better.

 

I will flush the brake fluid.

 

How do I access the rear drums to check its condition? Do I need to undo the big nut in the middle?

[etc]

Well it is possible that you have some air in your brake lines, but I would doubt it, unless you let the reservoir level get too low, or you opened up the hydraulic system to do work, which allowed air to enter. If you think you may have air in your system, you can tell because the brake pedal feels real spongie upon applying the brakes.

 

I question if you possibly need a new master cylinder? That would be my suspicion.

 

As far as bleeding the lines, I have been told to start the bleeding sequence at the road wheel farthest from the mc. However, I did not know that last summer, when I used a one man bleeder system to flush out old brake fluid that had the color of ice tea. I simply bled the back brakes, then the fronts. That worked out just fine. I guess in retrospect this could have been bleeding from the furthest point back from the mc.The one man bleeder prevents air from entering the hydraulic lines.[/quote

 

Thanks for the tip.

 

The brake fluid level is fine. It doesn't appear like the MC is totally gone, because I have *some* braking power just not enough IMO.

 

I will check out the rear drum brakes before I do anything else. I just need to figure out how to access them.

[RallyKeith]

Do you have drum brakes on the rear? if so you may need to adjust them. Pull the drums off and and make sure the adjustment star wheel is free.

 

In my experiance unadjusted rear drums don't effect the stopping force, it just makes the pedal move closer to the floor before actual braking begins. It's still a good thing to check though.

 

You may want to check for properly working calipers. I just spent some time diagnosing a problem with my 96 that had poor brakes. I had dual piston calipers in the front and one of the two pistons was seized, and the other was very hard to move. Made the car feel like it wasn't going to stop at high idle, but at the same time the car didn't exhibit any other signs such as pulling to one direction. I rebuilt the caliper and now it stops awesome!

 

Also, as you stated, this is in your opinion... Every Make/Model car is different. Do you have the ability to compare your car to another Subaru similar to yours? Maybe one on a used car lot? Try finding one with the same setup (Rear drum not 4 wheel disk) and driving it.

[etc]

We also have a '99 OBW with higher mileage that stops better. There is definitely something not right with this one. I doubt it's the rear brakes since most of the braking happens with the front brakes.

 

Its the calipers or it's the MC.

 

I will probably just replace the calipers, a good thing to replace anyway, and see what happens.

 

Good advice... thanks.

[nipper]

We also have a '99 OBW with higher mileage that stops better. There is definitely something not right with this one. I doubt it's the rear brakes since most of the braking happens with the front brakes.

 

Its the calipers or it's the MC.

 

I will probably just replace the calipers, a good thing to replace anyway, and see what happens.

 

Good advice... thanks.

 

Brake lines.

 

They are probably old and expanding when you hit the brake pedal, delaying braking forces.

 

Nipper

[nipper]

PS, check to make sure you car wasnt covered under the recall for bad master cylinders. i forget what years that was.

 

nipper

Edited December 8, 2008 by nipper

[etc]

Hm, gets more interesting. What do you mean, "expanding fuel line?"

 

How is that possible?

 

How do I diagnose the bad Master cylinder?

[nipper]

If thats for me i never said fuel lines

 

Brake lines are flexable hoses that are made of reinforced rubber with ia flexable plastic like hose. After millions and millions of times carrying pressurized fluid, they can get tired, making for a soft pedal that doesnt clear up with brake bleading.

 

Which leads me to ask, how are you bleeding your brakes, step by step. I have found 80% of the time people are doing it incorrectly and making things worse.

 

A bad master cylinder would be a goofy brake pedal that comes and goes at first. Its something that is confirmed by ruling out everything else first. Even if the brake lines are not the cause, and get replaced mistakingly, its not wasted money. Those hoses are 12 years old almost, and anytime you replace a super critical part like that, its never wasted money.

 

 

nipper

[etc]

PS, check to make sure you car wasnt covered under the recall for bad master cylinders. i forget what years that was.

 

nipper

 

The years are 97-99 but it seems not applicable to this situation.

More details:

 

http://groups.google.com/group/alt.autos.subaru/browse_thread/thread/5942f9fccecafcb2?hl=en&ie=UTF-8&q=subaru++recall+master+cylinder#

 

NHTSA CAMPAIGN ID Number: 99V040000

 

Component: BRAKES:HYDRAULIC:MASTER CYLINDER:OTHER

Manufacturer: SUBARU OF AMERICA, INC.

Year: 1999

Make: SUBARU

Model: LEGACY

Manufactured From: APR 1997 To: MAR 1999

Year of Recall: '99

Type of Report: Vehicle

Summary:

 

Vehicle Description: Passenger and sport utility vehicles equipped with

anti-lock braking system (ABS). (The 1999 2.2 liter Legacy vehicles are

excluded). In extremely cold weather, the brake pedal goes to the floor and

the vehicle stopping distance is increased.

 

This condition causes the vehicle stopping distance to be increased,

possibly resulting in a crash.

 

Dealers will replace the brake master cylinder.

 

Owner notification is expected to begin during April 1999. Owners who take

their vehicles to an authorized dealer on an agreed upon service date and do

not receive the free remedy within a reasonable time should contact Subaru

at Subaru at 1-800-782-2783. Also contact the National Highway Traffic

Safety Administration's Auto Safety Hotline at 1-888-DASH-2-DOT

(1-888-327-4236).

[etc]

If thats for me i never said fuel lines

 

Brake lines are flexable hoses that are made of reinforced rubber with ia flexable plastic like hose. After millions and millions of times carrying pressurized fluid, they can get tired, making for a soft pedal that doesnt clear up with brake bleading.

 

Which leads me to ask, how are you bleeding your brakes, step by step. I have found 80% of the time people are doing it incorrectly and making things worse.

 

A bad master cylinder would be a goofy brake pedal that comes and goes at first. Its something that is confirmed by ruling out everything else first. Even if the brake lines are not the cause, and get replaced mistakingly, its not wasted money. Those hoses are 12 years old almost, and anytime you replace a super critical part like that, its never wasted money.

 

 

nipper

 

 

 

No, it doesn't feel like that at all.

 

Question: Should I try replacing the calipers first, as the most likely source of trouble? (And then bleed the system)

 

Or the MC?

 

Or the brake lines -- how hard are they to replace? If they are rubber, this means I don't have to bend them like metal ones.

[nipper]

Blead the brakes first with fresh blake fluid starting at the closest wheel first.

 

Lets start there.

 

And yes the brake lines are flexable

 

Sometimes its better to let a shop look at things, just a thought as it is brakes, rather important.

 

nipper

[etc]

I will bleed it first and then see what happens.

 

My next stop after that would be the calipers, although I don't know how to determine that they are bad.

[etc]

How do I remove the rear drum brakes?

 

I got the wheel removed but cannot remove the center nut (1-1/4" deep socket) Seems like it needs *a lot* of torque but I don't want to break something. Do I just twist it off with a breaker bar?

[crockettbrat]

I've always loosened the nut with the wheel on the car and the car on the ground and then removed the wheel. Used a breaker bar. This was on my ea81 vehicle.

 

Daniel

[johnceggleston]

How do I remove the rear drum brakes?

 

I got the wheel removed but cannot remove the center nut (1-1/4" deep socket) Seems like it needs *a lot* of torque but I don't want to break something. Do I just twist it off with a breaker bar?

 

i'm not as familiar with rears as i am with fronts, but .....

 

you need to get a haynes manual from the auto parts store. otherwise you are going to make some mistakes waiting on answers from the board.

 

i don't think you have to remove the axle nut to pull the rear drum. you don't on the front, but it's been a while since i did rear drum brakes. usually if the rear shoes are not too tight, the rear drum will pull off after you have removed the wheel.

 

so i could be wrong. again i haven't done rear drum brakes on a subaru, and i still think you need a manual, 15$. it's worth the money, and you'll understand more when asking questions and getting answers here.

 

let us know how it goes.

[tcspeer]

John is right, you do not need to remove the axle nut to get the drum off. If it does not pull off easy after removing wheel just remove rubber plug in back and retract the shoes with the star wheel. You will need to push the little adj. lever away from the star wheel, you can feel this when you get on it with a small screwdriver because the spring tenision is on it. Use another screwdriver to retract the star wheel, It's a little tricky at first but easy when you do it a few times. You will be pushing the handle of the screwdriver towards the ground, as the star wheel needs to turn upwards,from the back side of the backing plate.

Edited December 11, 2008 by tcspeer