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Guest Message by DevFuse
 

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Wagonstien taking fully independent suspension to the next level


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191 replies to this topic

#151 monstaru

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Posted 26 April 2012 - 05:55 PM

Evidently you shouldna have
anything to worry about if your Heims are quality.

http://www.ruffstuff...ode=LNKBrackets
Cheers

#152 Ioku

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Posted 08 May 2012 - 01:33 AM

So I've made a good bit of progress lately.

Got the engine finished and ready to go in

Posted Image

I also swaped the 23 spline stub shafts in the D/R trans with the 25 spline shafts form the FT4wd trans so I can just use any Legacy or Impreza front axles instead of trying to find FWD Impreza axles.

I forgot to get a pic of the inside of the trans but here is a comparison pic of the 4WD pinion and FT4wd pinion shaft
4WD top FT4wd bottom
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I'd like to try welding a 4.44 pinion to the FT4wd shaft and using it in the D/R case but need to see what the machining will cost.

and 23 and 25 spline shafts these swap right over no other parts needed.

Posted Image

I then got the trany in, installed the front axles and drive shaft and hooked up the brake lines and installed the hub adapters.

with these my bolt patter is now 5x4.5
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Also extended the shifter linkages and got the hooked up, but decided to do something different for the 4wd linkage I put it between the gear shifter and ebrake, like it would be in most trucks and suv's, and I have something special planed for the Hi Lo shifting, but thats staying secret for right now.

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And cut out the fenders put the wheels and tires of and saw how she sat.

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oh and this came in recently, SJR adapter plate, now I just need to file the holes in my fly wheel and I can install the engine.

Posted Image

Edited by Ioku, 08 May 2012 - 01:51 AM.


#153 Ioku

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Posted 08 May 2012 - 01:41 AM

Evidently you shouldna have
anything to worry about if your Heims are quality.

http://www.ruffstuff...ode=LNKBrackets
Cheers


Good to know its been done successfully for the last 20 years, hopefully I wont have any problems.

#154 WoodsWagon

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Posted 08 May 2012 - 01:15 PM

Evidently you shouldna have
anything to worry about if your Heims are quality.

http://www.ruffstuff...ode=LNKBrackets
Cheers


Again, that's the joint being used to control axle rotation and placement, not to support the weight of the vehicle. That bracket mounts over the top of a solid axle differential and the coil overs would mount out on the axle tube, not on top of the links. As the axle tries to twist back or forward under power, the links and joints are being put in tension and compression, not side load.

After doing some looking around, there's a few different ratings for rod ends. You've got static load in the radial and axial directions and dynamic load in both those. Static load is the max strength for it trying to hold something in position without it rotating, dynamic is the amount of load it can hold while rotating without wearing out prematurely.

Axial load is the side loading of the joint, in line with the bolt hole going through it. Rod ends seem to average about 1/2 the static axial load rating of their radial load rating. So if your joint is rated to 28k static radial, then it's about or less than 14k static axial. Dynamic loads are rated less than static loads because they take wear into account. If you can find the dynamic load ratings of the upper joint you're using that would be good.

Going from a chart SKF has, depending on the material of the joint the max dynamic load is anywhere from 1/3 to 2/3's of the static load.

Edited by WoodsWagon, 08 May 2012 - 01:57 PM.


#155 shortysayhi

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Posted 08 May 2012 - 04:44 PM

Where did you get the hub adapters? and how thick are they?

#156 Uberoo

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Posted 09 May 2012 - 01:23 AM

theres a familiar tool!There was a time that I thought vice grips were only for locking tailgate struts.Then I learned that they are also extremely useful for transferring the intense heat of welding to your hand...

a more permanent solution is to get a thin piece of metal as long as the travel of the strut and fold it over the the top of the strut so when its in place it locks the strut.Just make the piece loose enough that you can slip it on or off relatively easy but tight enough that it locks the strut. Bonus is that you can paint the piece of metal to look like it belongs,and it frees up the vice grips for more important things....like transfering the intense heat of welding to your hand.:eek:

#157 monstaru

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Posted 09 May 2012 - 08:32 AM

Again, that's the joint being used to control axle rotation and placement, not to support the weight of the vehicle. That bracket mounts over the top of a solid axle differential and the coil overs would mount out on the axle tube, not on top of the links. As the axle tries to twist back or forward under power, the links and joints are being put in tension and compression, not side load.

After doing some looking around, there's a few different ratings for rod ends. You've got static load in the radial and axial directions and dynamic load in both those. Static load is the max strength for it trying to hold something in position without it rotating, dynamic is the amount of load it can hold while rotating without wearing out prematurely.

Axial load is the side loading of the joint, in line with the bolt hole going through it. Rod ends seem to average about 1/2 the static axial load rating of their radial load rating. So if your joint is rated to 28k static radial, then it's about or less than 14k static axial. Dynamic loads are rated less than static loads because they take wear into account. If you can find the dynamic load ratings of the upper joint you're using that would be good.

Going from a chart SKF has, depending on the material of the joint the max dynamic load is anywhere from 1/3 to 2/3's of the static load.

yay, a bunch of math jargon that is different from every manufacture. Plain and simple.It's gonna work.And they are replaceable parts.You are splitting hairs.It is not a race car.
I posted the link to rescind MY statement earlier in the thread.And spread more chaos evidently.
I think it looks cool.Curious to see how it works.
CHEERS Ioku!

#158 kanurys

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Posted 09 May 2012 - 04:51 PM

^^far from jargon. I think it's cool that you designed your own control arms with nice welds. I think it's very lame that you reject and overlook the input from other board members.

My experience has been that if there is any question about the feasibility of a proposition, that you should probably pay attention to that and thank the member for their concern. Even if you don't follow their advice (which this thread is fraught with) you can take the high road. That's what this board is all about. Practical applied input.

Maybe you could ask the objecting members what they would do in place of the lateral-links. You know - incase the thing does fail. You'd have a backup plan.

On another note, it does sit very nicely as you have designed it. We'll see how it holds up under dynamic loading.

#159 Ioku

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Posted 10 May 2012 - 01:41 AM

^^far from jargon. I think it's cool that you designed your own control arms with nice welds. I think it's very lame that you reject and overlook the input from other board members.

My experience has been that if there is any question about the feasibility of a proposition, that you should probably pay attention to that and thank the member for their concern. Even if you don't follow their advice (which this thread is fraught with) you can take the high road. That's what this board is all about. Practical applied input.

Maybe you could ask the objecting members what they would do in place of the lateral-links. You know - incase the thing does fail. You'd have a backup plan.

On another note, it does sit very nicely as you have designed it. We'll see how it holds up under dynamic loading.


I think your getting me and monstaru mixed up I never blew off WoodsWagon's explanation for the loading of the ball joints its good info and I'll look into it, but for right now my plan is to get this finnished and running and then test it out I'm breaking new ground here as I don't know of anyone else that has built a suspension like this on a Subaru and am planning on having some failures and needing to make changes. I've just never been one to sit and crunch a bunch of numbers to see if something will work, I'm more of the build it test it break it learn what went wrong and improve form there.

#160 Ioku

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Posted 10 May 2012 - 01:44 AM

Where did you get the hub adapters? and how thick are they?


I got them off Ebay form this seller http://myworld.ebay....sid=p4340.l2559 they're 1 inch thick

#161 smackvt

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Posted 12 May 2012 - 06:42 AM

Yeah if worst comes to worse, you can always put those Toyota upper ball joints back on ..... That should take like a whole hour. Ü:horse:

#162 monstaru

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Posted 15 May 2012 - 01:56 PM

^^far from jargon. I think it's cool that you designed your own control arms with nice welds. I think it's very lame that you reject and overlook the input from other board members.

My experience has been that if there is any question about the feasibility of a proposition, that you should probably pay attention to that and thank the member for their concern. Even if you don't follow their advice (which this thread is fraught with) you can take the high road. That's what this board is all about. Practical applied input.

Maybe you could ask the objecting members what they would do in place of the lateral-links. You know - incase the thing does fail. You'd have a backup plan.

On another note, it does sit very nicely as you have designed it. We'll see how it holds up under dynamic loading.


Not my car...:)
Oh how I just love keyboard builders.People that take on projects like this are from two schools.Those that are pretty sure it will work.And folks that think it needs to be engineered like a spacecraft.(and never finish)

Woodswagon:
I have also seen heim joints layed down like that when utilized in 4 link setups.Defenitely weight bearing.As a matter of fact bouncing and jumping , and, and, and....
cheers

still looks good,cheers

#163 kanurys

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Posted 15 May 2012 - 06:57 PM

Good job on the build. I don't mean to be nagative in previous posts. If it work, it works. You seem to have good fab skills and I'm following your thread for that reason.

I'm no keyboard builder, either. I might be very concise and plan differently than just jumping in and figuring it out, but I have a lot of respect for people who can jump right in and cut some sheet metal. I would never give advice on something I didn't have experience in. Oh, and I finish ALL of my endeavors. That's where persistence and "engineering" come in very handy.

Good luck on the project. I'll be watching intently.

Edited by kanurys, 15 May 2012 - 07:02 PM.


#164 smackvt

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Posted 15 May 2012 - 07:04 PM

Yah what I said. :drunk:

#165 maniac

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Posted 22 June 2012 - 04:23 AM

any updates?

#166 Aki

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Posted 06 July 2012 - 01:32 PM

Very cool build!

Dig the color scheme as well, nicely sedate.

#167 Ioku

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Posted 26 December 2012 - 09:53 PM

I know its been awhile but its time for an update I've been both busy and lazy and haven't gotten around to it.

I Got front and rear tube bumpers built and a roof rack and winch installed

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I also got the engine in and running along with the onboard air system, converted an ac comp to a air compressor.

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and had to swap out the old front springs for some off a supra because the old one couldn't hold the weight once the engine was in. And added some limiting straps

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I'll tray and get some better and more updated pics soon.

#168 Subruise

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Posted 26 December 2012 - 09:56 PM

bout time!! i LOVE this build. also the surrounding controversy makes me anxious to see it in action. get back to work!

#169 Cyfun

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Posted 26 December 2012 - 10:02 PM

Looks excellent! I'm SO gonna copy those bumper designs!

Can you tell us more about your onboard air setup? Been working on something similar, just haven't actually worked on it, lol.

#170 4play

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Posted 28 December 2012 - 12:02 PM

I really like this and would like to see it in action.

#171 Haight

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Posted 30 December 2012 - 10:56 PM

Looking forward to seeing this on the road. Let me know when you start manufacturing this setup for resale! :banana:

#172 herb

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Posted 30 December 2012 - 11:10 PM

Looking forward to seeing this on the road. Let me know when you start manufacturing this setup for resale! :banana:


My thoughts exactly, I would pay good money for a setup like this...

#173 Numbchux

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Posted 31 December 2012 - 01:22 AM

My thoughts exactly, I would pay good money for a setup like this...


You say that....but I bet there wouldn't be a single who would pay fair value for a long travel suspension setup for an old gen subaru

A similar performing kit from Total Chaos for an '86-95 Toyota truck/4Runner costs about $2k. And that's just upper and lower A-arms and hardware:
Posted Image

This would require custom knuckles and engine crossmember too, at the very least.




That said, I think it's awesome. That camber change through the range of motion kind of makes me nervous, but it might still function well. I'm anxious to see how it performs, and how those front axles hold up :headbang:

#174 Ioku

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Posted 31 December 2012 - 01:33 AM

You say that....but I bet there wouldn't be a single who would pay fair value for a long travel suspension setup for an old gen subaru

A similar performing kit from Total Chaos for an '86-95 Toyota truck/4Runner costs about $2k. And that's just upper and lower A-arms and hardware:


This would require custom knuckles and engine crossmember too, at the very least.


Very true, for me to come up with a bolt on kit like this I would have to get at least 4K for it and it still might not be worth it and I don't see many people wanting to pay 4 times the value of the car for a suspension kit.

#175 oregoncoast

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Posted 31 December 2012 - 04:28 AM

:popcorn:




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