stickedy Posted October 21, 2012 Share Posted October 21, 2012 (edited) I have an 1991 EJ22 Legacy Station wagon and since the gasoline price here in Germany (and most parts of Europe) are much too high to afford driving (about 1.50 Euro for one Liter, that's about 7.40 US$ for one gallon), I'm playing with the idea to convert the EJ22 engine to LPG (Liquefied Petroleum Gas). But sadly those cars are not that common here in Germany and I really can't find any informations if the EJ22 is really proof for LPG operation. I don't want the engine to get damaged... I just found informations about the next generation Legacy from 1995 onwards with EJ25 to be proof for LPG operation and there everything would be fine. However that really helps since I don't know if that informations from the later Legacy's could be assigned to my model. So does anyone made a conversation to LPG yet? Sadly the message board software doesn't let me search for "lpg" or "gas"... Or has anyone see such a conversion? Thanks in advance! Edited October 21, 2012 by stickedy Some kind of miscalculating, don't know how I managed this ;) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bratman18 Posted October 21, 2012 Share Posted October 21, 2012 Type propane conversion into the search bar. I just found a whole bunch of threads about it on all different motors. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
porcupine73 Posted October 21, 2012 Share Posted October 21, 2012 Hi, yes well fuel prices around here aren't much less, at least not for premium, it runs around USD$4.40/gal. I was researching this in years past to attempt a CNG conversion. Pretty much it seems like you need either a different ECU or a piggyback ECU, especially if you want to be able to switch between LPG and gasoline. This also meters the right amount of LPG into the intake manifold for the amount of airflow. This regulator/meter also needs coolant lines run to it to keep it warm, else it will ice up usually. I think you get less power on LPG too since an engine specifically for LPG would have a higher compression ratio? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idosubaru Posted October 21, 2012 Share Posted October 21, 2012 yes it's been done..it's been discussed on here before. try searching here and google. it's more common in Australia, there's an Aussie member here (probably more than one) who has done it before...his username is something even has LPG or something in it! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Dude Posted October 21, 2012 Share Posted October 21, 2012 I have an 1991 EJ22 Legacy Station wagon and since the gasoline price here in Germany (and most parts of Europe) are much too high to afford driving (about 1.50 Euro for one Liter, that's about 4.90 US$ for one gallon), I'm playing with the idea to convert the EJ22 engine to LPG (Liquefied Petroleum Gas). But sadly those cars are not that common here in Germany and I really can't find any informations if the EJ22 is really proof for LPG operation. I don't want the engine to get damaged... I just found informations about the next generation Legacy from 1995 onwards with EJ25 to be proof for LPG operation and there everything would be fine. However that really helps since I don't know if that informations from the later Legacy's could be assigned to my model. So does anyone made a conversation to LPG yet? Sadly the message board software doesn't let me search for "lpg" or "gas"... Or has anyone see such a conversion? Thanks in advance! 1.5 (Euros)x 4 (approx liters per US gallon)x 1.3 (Euro/USD)=$7.80 USD Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stickedy Posted October 21, 2012 Author Share Posted October 21, 2012 (edited) 1.5 (Euros)x 4 (approx liters per US gallon)x 1.3 (Euro/USD)=$7.80 USD Puh, must have mistyped anything in the calculator You're right of course! And since a gallon is about 3.78 liters, the amount is a bit lower - but high enough, LPG costs about 3.90 US$ per gallon... @grossgary I've done a search as bratman18 suggested, but didn't found anything about EJ22. Anyway, I will do some more searches later that day - and have a look for that Aussie guy Edited October 21, 2012 by stickedy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stickedy Posted October 21, 2012 Author Share Posted October 21, 2012 Hi, yes well fuel prices around here aren't much less, at least not for premium, it runs around USD$4.40/gal. I was researching this in years past to attempt a CNG conversion. Pretty much it seems like you need either a different ECU or a piggyback ECU, especially if you want to be able to switch between LPG and gasoline. This also meters the right amount of LPG into the intake manifold for the amount of airflow. This regulator/meter also needs coolant lines run to it to keep it warm, else it will ice up usually. I think you get less power on LPG too since an engine specifically for LPG would have a higher compression ratio? CNG is much more complicated - and we don't have many CNG stations here, so LPG is the better choice. With LPG Venturi system you "just" have to add an Venturi nozzle in the air intake (after the air filter assembly) and the other components of the LPG Venturi system (vaporizer, LPG tank and some other stuff). Not a real challenge on that old cars - newer cars a more difficult though. Anyway, doesn't make any sense to install this and then the engine will die Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ivans imports Posted October 21, 2012 Share Posted October 21, 2012 We ran a 420 cid porpane mixer on a 2.2 turbo and on a 3.0 turbo and have run ea82 and ea81 turbos on propane seems that the 420 is just big enuff.We had tried to use a 325 mixer but was to small for ej motors worked good on smaller motors. I like to run both so can swich back and forth between propane and gas. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idosubaru Posted October 22, 2012 Share Posted October 22, 2012 he's posted in this thread and is running an EJ conversion: http://www.ultimatesubaru.org/forum/showthread.php?t=134417&highlight=propane+conversion another guy that's done a couple EJ conversions in CA: http://www.ultimatesubaru.org/forum/showthread.php?t=13480&highlight=propane+conversion&page=2 i found lots of hits just here searching for propane conversions. there were a bunch more if you search. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turboguzzi Posted October 22, 2012 Share Posted October 22, 2012 I did an EJ20 in italy, getting the equivalent of 52 mpg based on $$$ read all about it here, http://ultimatesubaru.org/forum/showthread.php?t=134277 will be glad to help if i can Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TOONGA Posted October 22, 2012 Share Posted October 22, 2012 Just to point out New Zealand is its own country LPGsuperchargedBrumby lives in Dunedin And yes LPG conversions are done in Australia all the time. Ford has LPG dedicated cars that come from the factory. the biggest problem most conversions have, is the wasted spark on the ignition. this can cause intake explosions. I do know there is a way around this, but I don't know how to do it sorry. In Australia different states have different laws on who can install the kits. as well in Western Australia a licenced gas fitter must do the install. on the east coast it is a DYI unless the laws have changed. TOONGA Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rverdoold Posted October 23, 2012 Share Posted October 23, 2012 Curious what systems they use in Australia. In holland it is direct injected LPG right above the intake valve. It is extremely unlikely that you get manifold backfires with this system. I now own a ej161 on LPG and before a EJ20 and we have had a EJ25 as well. Subarus run great on LPG because they hard valve seats. If your EJ22 has HLAs it is even better. No valve worries. Ah and my car starts on normal gasoline and after 500m to 1 km (depending on temperature) it automatically goes to LPG. I can force start on LPG but it is not advised. I would advice to get an injected system like mine or turboguzzi. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turboguzzi Posted October 23, 2012 Share Posted October 23, 2012 no DIY'ing of LPG install round here in italy..... specially since the car is taken for emissions testing after the installation. With sequential injection of the LPG too, there shouldnt be an explosion danger indeed, so I guess its more dangerous with a carb'd car? my car runs a romano kit: http://www.romanoautogas.it/?go=home&lang=English Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rverdoold Posted October 23, 2012 Share Posted October 23, 2012 He lives in Germany, I think TUV will ask for lots of papers, stamps and signatures how it is converted to LPG. However raises a few questions: How many KM did your engine run? How old is the car itself? As in, is it financially still attractive to convert this car? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stickedy Posted October 23, 2012 Author Share Posted October 23, 2012 He lives in Germany, I think TUV will ask for lots of papers, stamps and signatures how it is converted to LPG. I see, you know Germany And yes, in general, you are right. But that doesn't mean, that you have to make everything as it is supposed So, first of all - and the real good thing - since the car has Euro 1 exhaust emission standard, there is no need for an emission report. That saves between 150 and 1000 Euro (the first if the manufacturer made that report already for that specific car - which is unlinkely - and the latter if TÜV makes it for you). Second: Basically the installation in Germany is only allowed by certified person, but - thanks to EU - that certification is only valid to Germany, not to other EU countries, so that rule has no meaning in reality unless all components of the LPG system fulfill a specific safety norm (don't know the number right now) and you have a manual for it. Therefore I will do the installation it on my own (pssst, don't tell!). So, I only will to pay for the safety gas check at TÜV and the registration of the LPG system there. That will be about 150 to 200 Euro (I will make it together with main inspection in February). And for the LPG system. That will be about 500 Euro. So, all togther let's say 700 Euro. It would cost about 2000 - 2500 Euro when done officially in Germany and about 1500 - 2000 when done in Poland. However raises a few questions: How many KM did your engine run? How old is the car itself? As in, is it financially still attractive to convert this car? The engine has 190.000 km, the car is 21 years old. And yes, it's attractive since I will drive to Greece in November or December, that will be about 6000 km. That will cost about 750 Euro for gasoline (1.40 Euro paying in average for one liter, 9 liter/100 km). If I drive that distance with LPG it will cost me about 450 Euro (10% more mileage, 0.75 Euro) So, I will save 300 Euro only on this trip! And minimum 30 Euro every week when in Germany. So after 13 weeks (or let's say 3 months) at the latest, the LPG system is paid And even if the car dies in the next 3 months, then I just swap the LPG system to another one So, all well thought. And i got the informations I need, the car will get the conversion in the next weeks as soon as possible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rverdoold Posted October 24, 2012 Share Posted October 24, 2012 Mine was 1600 euro in Holland (Hengelo near German border). I have no idea what Turboguzzi paid in Italy. But Poland will de definitly cheaper. Yes LPG is a lot cheaper to drive on, and 190k km is not that much. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turboguzzi Posted October 24, 2012 Share Posted October 24, 2012 it cost 1600 euro here too. with petrol vs gas in italy at 1.8 euro vs. 0.8 euro a liter, my break even point is around 25,000 km. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ivans imports Posted October 24, 2012 Share Posted October 24, 2012 i love the fact that i live in middle of nowere can run anything we whant in bush are propane subarus run off a brbq bottle in the back mabee not so dot aproved but simple. How far can a turbo justy go on a ten lb propane bottle will find out for you guys. When the bottle runs out turn on the efi and keep on trucken. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rverdoold Posted October 24, 2012 Share Posted October 24, 2012 i love the fact that i live in middle of nowere can run anything we whant in bush are propane subarus run off a brbq bottle in the back mabee not so dot aproved but simple. How far can a turbo justy go on a ten lb propane bottle will find out for you guys. When the bottle runs out turn on the efi and keep on trucken. A turbo on LPG, I would not try it. Unless it is liquid injected right above the pistons. It is getting a lot hotter in there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rverdoold Posted October 24, 2012 Share Posted October 24, 2012 it cost 1600 euro here too. with petrol vs gas in italy at 1.8 euro vs. 0.8 euro a liter, my break even point is around 25,000 km. He says with a big smile on his face. Like me Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turboguzzi Posted October 25, 2012 Share Posted October 25, 2012 i love the fact that i live in middle of nowere can run anything we whant in bush are propane subarus run off a brbq bottle in the back mabee not so dot aproved but simple. How far can a turbo justy go on a ten lb propane bottle will find out for you guys. When the bottle runs out turn on the efi and keep on trucken. man, unles its an EJ22 in that justy you are way off topic Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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