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Misfire 1&3 Cold weather.


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24 replies to this topic

#1 Hentai

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Posted 16 November 2005 - 09:26 PM

I’ve done some searching here and through google. Ive read through some of them I think.
I’ve got the P0301 and P0303 codes....



I have a couple of questions I hope you guys might be able to help me with.



I’ve done all the typical tune up, wires, plugs, etc.

Last winter I had occasional rough idle at start up but once it warmed up it ran great. I played with injector cleaners, engine cleaners and lubricators (in the back of my mind thinking something might help and hoping it isn’t the sticky exhaust valves Ive heard about)



Ran great all spring and summer, no check engine light, and bam as soon as cooler fall weather came its ba~~ack. This time a little worse. Pretty rough at start up usually settles with a few minutes of driving. But can be pretty rough at lights even when warm.





Anyway.



I am thinking it is this valve problem, do I sound way off? Suggestions?

Is colder weather more likely to effect sticky valves? (esp at start)

If yes.

Can I remove the heads without pulling the engine (I’ve heard both opinions here but it is awful tight in there)

Once the heads are off, rebuild solves all my problems and add a little pep to my step? Ive got a good place.

Replacing head gaskets, etc, hoses and I’m happy and worry free for a long time to come?



Thanks for any advice you can give.



Hentai

#2 nipper

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Posted 16 November 2005 - 09:57 PM

Way off. Way way off. a valve doesnt care about weather. Ignition can care about weather. Wiring can care. Some sensors can care. Take a spray bottle under the hoood at night and wet down the ignition coil, look for stray voltage. that would rule out the coil towers.

i'm a bit more spacey then usual from my back pain meds, but a sticky valve is a sticky valve, You have something that happens when it gets cold. Check the ECU engine temp sensor also. It may have a bad spot in it that only kicks in at low temps.

nipper

#3 Hentai

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Posted 17 November 2005 - 01:10 AM

Thanks for the reply.

Makes me feel good actually.

So I should start with checking the coil? Spray it down with water when the engine is cold? then start and look for sparks? Check the connections?
You mentioned ignition. Would that also include wires, plugs, etc?

"ECU engine temp sensor" could this also include the block heater (the heater I can plug in to keep the engine warm in extreme cold) that was installed?

Feeling pretty darn lost right now,
Hentai

#4 Hentai

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Posted 17 November 2005 - 12:47 PM

I was thinking about the 1-3 misfire and its relation to the valves, could there be a similarly related specific sensor or part of a part that only affects 1 and 3?

Thanks again

Ryan

#5 beezer

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Posted 17 November 2005 - 08:04 PM

Do you think you have those codes ...... or do you have those codes?

If you don't know for sure, go to a parts store and have them read the codes.

My guesss, probably the coolant temp. sensor.

Oh! What year, model is your car?

#6 nipper

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Posted 17 November 2005 - 09:32 PM

Thanks for the reply.

Makes me feel good actually.

So I should start with checking the coil? Spray it down with water when the engine is cold? then start and look for sparks? Check the connections?
You mentioned ignition. Would that also include wires, plugs, etc?

"ECU engine temp sensor" could this also include the block heater (the heater I can plug in to keep the engine warm in extreme cold) that was installed?

Feeling pretty darn lost right now,
Hentai


There are two temp sensors. One is for the temp gauge on the dash, the other is for the ECU. The ECU one is the one that i think may be bad. Get yourself a haynes manual when you have the codes pulled.
engine you can wet down with a hose if you wanted.. but im thinking more its the temp sensor.

another possability is the ignitor, but get the manual first and read it :) then we can try a few things

nipper

#7 Hentai

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Posted 17 November 2005 - 11:32 PM

Nipper,
Hope you back is doing better.
I have the manual... but I didnt know I had to read it. :P

Thanks, Ill start with the temp sensors and go from there.

Hentai

btw 97 OBW 2.5l and they are codes that my friendly autozone pulled for me

#8 1 Lucky Texan

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Posted 17 November 2005 - 11:33 PM

put down the 'tentacle porn' and go fix your car! (I keed, I keed lol!)

what they said. Plus, you could exchage the coils for each other I think, move the cables and plug wires and trade them off. Then see if the problem follows the coil. They CAN have cracks/carbon tracks that you might see or hear at night - or misting them may induce failure like dew/condensation could in the morning. I wouldn't rule out front O2 sensor - but coil is more likely IMHO.

Carl
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#9 Hentai

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Posted 19 November 2005 - 01:28 PM

put down the 'tentacle porn' and go fix your car! (I keed, I keed lol!)


It took me a long time to figure out wht you were talking about... yeah Ive found out that the word I thought meant one thing (it means something different in its native language (japanese) than it does in the states, appearently refering to an interesting genre of cartoon porn. lol.

Last year I actually traded a coil with a friend with the same car... same year, engine, color, everything and still had the same problem.

Once I make it over to Subaru (shudder) and get the parts Ill let you guys know whats happening.

Thanks for the help.
HENTAI!!

#10 murdoc158

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Posted 20 November 2005 - 10:10 AM

Hey I just picked up my first Subaru yesterday. I got a 1997 Legacy GT 2.5 Wagon 5-speed black/gray. I also had a check engine light on. I pulled the codes and also got P0301 and P0303 for misfires in cylanders 1 and 3. Having no previous Subaru experiece I wasn't sure where to start. First off, how does Subaru number the cylanders? I know #1 is the left front, and #4 is the right rear. Those were the only plug wires that had numbers on them. I need to know if #3 is the left rear or right front. Depending on that information, I figured that if #3 was the right front, it would be coil related, since #1 and #3 fire from the same coil. If #3 was the left rear, I figured maybe the O2 sensor for that side of the engine. Also where is the ECU temp sensor that was mentioned previously? I know my way around an engine, and have rebuilt many Japanese motors, but I know very little about the Subaru motor. Thanks in advance
-Jason

#11 Hentai

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Posted 21 November 2005 - 07:36 PM

Murdoc, 1 and 3 are on the same side. I still havent gotten to Subaru but as soon as I do Ill ask em where it the temp sensor is located.
Hentai

#12 murdoc158

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Posted 21 November 2005 - 08:02 PM

Thanks, I kinda figured that 1 and 3 were on the same side. I noticed the CEL flashing today, so I rescanned the codes. Now I have misfire on 1 and 2, but nothing on #3. Odd.... I picked up a set of NGK Iridium plugs this weekend. I havn't put them in yet, but hopefully this will help. There are Champion plugs in there right now. If I don't notice any change I might do O2 sensors (I think they are still original 143,000 miles old).

I've included a couple of pics. Can anyone tell me if the coils look original or aftermarket?
Posted Image

And what about this bolt? It's threaded into an adjuster, but it keeps backing out? Something looks like it's missing, but I have no idea what.

Posted Image

#13 beezer

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Posted 22 November 2005 - 05:28 AM

That would be the adjuster bolt, and no it shouldn't be like that. I would loosen the bolt on the square part that it is threaded into. Push the alternator all the way down, then tighten it, it should pull the alternator up the tensioner bolt to set the tension. Once the tension is set tighten the bolt on the square looking part.

The coil pack looks normal. The front 2 cylinders (if you are looking at the engine from the front) are 1 and 2. And the back is 3 and 4.

Coolant temp. sensor is kinda underneath the PCV valve. It is under the intake, you will probably see two, the bigger one is the coolant temp. sensor

#14 Sweet82

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Posted 22 November 2005 - 10:47 AM

Ignition can care about weather. Wiring can care. Some sensors can care. Take a spray bottle under the hood at night and wet down the ignition coil, look for stray voltage. that would rule out the coil towers.

nipper


What he said!
My car did the same thing last weekend, it was a rainy/snowy day and when I fired it up it ran rough.
I looked under the hood and was "shocked" at what I saw!!!

Sparks jumping from my #4 wire to the metal.

Drove it a bit and it ran fine in a matter of minutes.

I replaced my wires anyway but I'm sure that humidity was the problem.

Good Luck,
Glenn
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#15 murdoc158

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Posted 06 December 2005 - 06:40 PM

Just an update:

I replaced the Champion spark plugs with some NGK Iridium plugs to no avail. I used a spray bottle at night to check the wires, and nothing there either. I ended up replacing the wires and upstream O2 sensor with OEM brand replacements. I reset the ECU and cleared the code out. Drove the car 90 miles since then and no CEL yet. Looks like it may be solved.

#16 Hentai

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Posted 07 January 2006 - 05:34 PM

Well to update... yes I finally got to work on her.

I replace the Engine Temp Sensor. It is a bear to get to it and to get the the new one it. I cracked one hose and I see how you could easily tear old and hardened vacuum hoses as well. There was quite a bit in the way.

The sensor, if I can describe it, is located under the passenger side intake manifold towards the rear of the engine. On mine the guage sensor was smaller but more visable, once I located it the ECU sensor was next to it. It is pretty deep under the intake manifold and is impossible to see it with out removal of several items.

You need to remove the air intake as well as all the hoses for the pcv valve as well as a small coolant line and at least 4 vacuum lines. I then had unbolt a harness that held 3 big plugs of wiring to move them far enough away to release the clasp connected to the sensor. A socket with a couple of extensions and a swivel made easy work of getting it out. Upon removal about 1/2 gallon of coolant is lost (doh). Reinstall aint bad esp if you didnt break any of the hoses, like I did.

She is running a little better now, idle much smoother. I want to get the code cleared and see what happens. I think next step would be O2 sensor and possibly wires (which have already been replaced but with cheapos from autozone).

Thanks for the help gentlemen.
Hentai

#17 Opie

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Posted 07 January 2006 - 05:48 PM

If you guys pull the plug wires off the coil are the coil contacts corroded....or not shiney...thinking you might have a coil going bad...

#18 murdoc158

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Posted 07 January 2006 - 06:48 PM

If you guys pull the plug wires off the coil are the coil contacts corroded....or not shiney...thinking you might have a coil going bad...


Well the plugs, wires, coil, and O2 sensors have been replaced and the CEL is still on. Replacements were all OEM, no cheapo autozone stuff. The coil I pulled off looked fine, but went with a hunch.

Hentai, keep us updated on the CEL status. If it gets cleared and stays out I will look into replacing the temp sensor. How much did this sensor run and do you still have the part number for it?

#19 Hentai

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Posted 07 January 2006 - 08:32 PM

Hentai, keep us updated on the CEL status. If it gets cleared and stays out I will look into replacing the temp sensor. How much did this sensor run and do you still have the part number for it?


Will do.
The sensor was $36.10+tax at Subaru. Part # on the receipt is 22630AA041
Mine is a 97 Legacy OBW.
Hentai

edit: BTW I swapped out a coil from same exact year, model, etc and had same codes pulled after a couple of days.

edit 2:
the parts guy I talked, as we tried to figure out what sensor it is exactly, said that there are a lot of this one (sensor I replace) during colder weather. As my problems only occur during colder weather I am a bit optimistic.

#20 Hentai

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Posted 30 January 2006 - 08:44 AM

Man alive this is driving me nuts!

Code came back again and I replaced the O2 sensor.
All seemed good, CEL 1 and 3 again.

Went to my final solution was to replce the wires.
Started great, ran smooth, all good.
Next day CEL again with misfire on 1 and 3.

But now it has a very rough idle and seems to be missing while driving when the engine is warm. This is the worst it has been.

So till now it has
Plugs
Wires
O2 Sensor
Engine Temp Sensor
Swapped Coil
Various Feul Additives
Sea Foamed the intake

Please help.....

#21 1 Lucky Texan

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Posted 30 January 2006 - 11:57 AM

Man alive this is driving me nuts!

Code came back again and I replaced the O2 sensor.
All seemed good, CEL 1 and 3 again.

Went to my final solution was to replce the wires.
Started great, ran smooth, all good.
Next day CEL again with misfire on 1 and 3.

But now it has a very rough idle and seems to be missing while driving when the engine is warm. This is the worst it has been.

So till now it has
Plugs
Wires
O2 Sensor
Engine Temp Sensor
Swapped Coil
Various Feul Additives
Sea Foamed the intake

Please help.....


Man.
Well, um, maybe get the fuel pressure tested?
Also, I assume the battery has been disconnected or the ECU reset after all these?
I didn't review this thread - has anyone suggested a mechanic in your area?

#22 Hentai

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Posted 30 January 2006 - 12:48 PM

Man.
I didn't review this thread - has anyone suggested a mechanic in your area?


Am at that point if anyone can suggest.

#23 murdoc158

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Posted 30 January 2006 - 04:28 PM

Man alive this is driving me nuts!

Code came back again and I replaced the O2 sensor.
All seemed good, CEL 1 and 3 again.

Went to my final solution was to replce the wires.
Started great, ran smooth, all good.
Next day CEL again with misfire on 1 and 3.

But now it has a very rough idle and seems to be missing while driving when the engine is warm. This is the worst it has been.

So till now it has
Plugs
Wires
O2 Sensor
Engine Temp Sensor
Swapped Coil
Various Feul Additives
Sea Foamed the intake

Please help.....



Well I've done the same as you (minus the engine temp sensor), plus I have changed the fuel filter, and still no luck. I don't think I even realize the CEL is on any more. This sucks!:banghead:

#24 Hentai

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Posted 01 February 2006 - 02:14 PM

Well I've done the same as you (minus the engine temp sensor), plus I have changed the fuel filter, and still no luck. I don't think I even realize the CEL is on any more. This sucks!:banghead:


Well its gotten to the point were you can smell gas when she is idling and there are very noticable misfires, rocking and bouncing at stop lights and loss of power on the highway.

Im bringing it to a local guy. Im guessing injectors or possibly valves are the problem. If he is confident he can fixi it by something sipmle like injectors or such I will go with it. Ifs a big job, like having to remove the heads and getting them rebuilt I would rather do it. Then I know its done right and I can asses every hose, electrical connection, etc.

Very frustrating.... All this, on top of my wife hitting a cabby that pulled out into an intersection trying to jump the light and cause a heck of a lot of damage. And the insurance company may be paying us nothing for the accident he caused! Crashed up and runnign poorly... BooBoo (her nickname) is living up to her nickname.

#25 Lawsonmh15

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Posted 01 February 2006 - 08:13 PM

I’ve done some searching here and through google. Ive read through some of them I think.
I’ve got the P0301 and P0303 codes....



I have a couple of questions I hope you guys might be able to help me with.



I’ve done all the typical tune up, wires, plugs, etc.



Just a shot in the dark, but what plugs did you use? I had the Exact codes about 7k miles after installing some Bosch Plat + 4's. However, I think that one of the connectors inside of one of the crap Napa wires was disconnected. I replaced the plugs with NGK's and the wires with OEM and smooth sailing ever since.




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