FlyB0y Posted October 2, 2009 Share Posted October 2, 2009 Ok, so here's a really weird one. Hope someone reading this can tell me where to look first, this is a new one on me. Today, I agreed to do a few parts of the 30,000 mile service for my parent's '07 Saturn Vue. That is where is started I think. Subarus (Brats in particular) have amazing hearing, I wasn't even outside the house when I made this agreement but sadly it was over-heard So the same brat that I had JUST taken on a 50 mile round trip from OR City to visit in Newberg decided it had had enough. First sign there was trouble was the used battery I have bought was dead (just used the car last week) had to jump the car with the spare reconditioned one that I haven't re-installed yet. Everything is running fine, I'm heading out to look at a kid's gas powered bicycle that had been T-boned by a car (he says it didn't hit too hard, only enough to bend the crank!? ) and see if I could get it back on the road for him. Well, I head ALL THE WAY DOWN the big hill in OR City, drop off a bike helmet to a friend, and discover my brat just died for no apparent reason. No weak start, turns over fine, just acting like it's short of fuel or something. Luckily, I am right next to a 76 gas station. I was at a quarter tank, so I decided to put some in and call it good. I have it die once more but go onto the 205 North on-ramp anyway and make it to just the top of the on-ramp (from Mc Loughlin/99 ) and call home to get someone to bring the spare battery. It was a REAL pain to get it in, the terminals were backwards for the main spot (note to self, NEVER buy a spare battery that doesn't fit where the main one does) and after a good hour of pulling my hair out, I finally get it rigged up and merge onto 205 N. NO hesitation, NO sputtering or anything to indicate a weak charging system of any kind (I checked the battery once I got it started again and the alt was pumping out its normal 14V). I drive about 5 miles more, go thought the Fredy's parking lot, and wait at a light and suddenly it just dies! Again no sputtering or surging as if low on fuel, just at idle and quietly dies. After barely getting it started again it dies in the middle of the intersection leaving the parking lot. Fortunately I have enough momentum to make it through, crank it and crank it till it goes again, and for the final 2 miles, everything works fine?! Is there some kind of special way I need to make my brat feel loved again or something?! I have been going almost everywhere with a bicycle and borrowing the Saturn when I had to drive 90% of the time. My first thought was fuel filter, but this is acting strange to be a plugged filter. P.S. I DID notice that my positive battery terminal is all corroded, I have a replacement I have been intending to get to anyway, but how would that explain the sudden engine death? Isn't a Subaru capable of running with a good alt on a battery that is going south? (barring a battery with a short, just mean a worn-out battery) I know of some older cars that could run with-out the battery as long they got a jump or were kept running. Looking for advice as to where to look first! Thanks! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Beast I Drive Posted October 2, 2009 Share Posted October 2, 2009 I know that with My 85 brat, I had a corroded ground cable to the battery, and one day it just died out of the blue whil I was driving it.... I made a new cable out of some heavy-duty Welder ground-lead cable and a new terminal and all was good with it! So, definitely could be a bad cable.... -Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gwilson87 Posted October 2, 2009 Share Posted October 2, 2009 You need to love it more. Maybe a nice night in the garage, just the two of you. Although that usually ends in me hitting my car and screaming obscenities at it... But in reality, I hope you can figure out the problem. The more older subarus on the road, the better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amokster Posted October 2, 2009 Share Posted October 2, 2009 Did you buy the white Brat in Oregon City? If so, it might be the Brat I was looking at before it got sold. It had a vacuum leak issue, so he says. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bucky92 Posted October 2, 2009 Share Posted October 2, 2009 Kinda sounds like what my evil XT6 did when its coil was going belly up...would run great for a few miles and die...seemed wierd but once it cooled off for 10-15 minutes..it would run fine agagin for a few miles. I agree ...also ..about them getting jealous... I have a few moody ones myself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hatchsub Posted October 2, 2009 Share Posted October 2, 2009 When it dies and you cant restart it and are cranking and cranking it...does the tach move at all? If it does not it is your coil. The tach gets signal from the coil and if the coil is kaput then it will not register that the motor is turning over. Just throwing that out there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcbrat Posted October 2, 2009 Share Posted October 2, 2009 maybe try and swap in a different disty.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlyB0y Posted October 2, 2009 Author Share Posted October 2, 2009 He he I wish I had the cash for a second car, but I think I would get an Impreza Wagon instead of another brat, I got enough trouble with the one I have! Having Subarus is kinda like having kids, at times you can feel like you can never have enough, at other times even ONE is too much! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlyB0y Posted October 2, 2009 Author Share Posted October 2, 2009 maybe try and swap in a different disty.... Hmmmm you know, I did replace the ditsy with a JY special about 2 years or so ago, hadn't thought of that one! Also thanks on the advice about determining the health of the coil, I will have to check that. ATM I am just checking the basics, fuel, fire, air. I opened up my K&N filter box and handful of pine needles came out (of the filter side, not the carb side ) but you can very easily and clearly see day-light through the filter, so unless it's dried out, I think it's ok, going to check the spark plugs next to see if they are sooty, that would be a good sign that it was a plugged air filter. Then I will start chasing the fuel from tank to carb and make sure it's flowing free, just had to replace the fuel pump in dad's Datsun (that's whole other can of worms, I finally had to just refuse to drive it for him until he agrees to FIX things on it instead of just "make it run" zzz it was a good truck when it was maintained about 30 years ago, now every-other time I drive it, I walk home ... ) I hope that's not the issue with the brat. Oh well, back to work! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brat_Dog Posted October 2, 2009 Share Posted October 2, 2009 I put in a performace type coil into my 84 Brat and the ignition module (in a newly rebuilt distributer) would get hot and the car behaved the same way you described. Once I figured out what was goin on, I replaced the coil with a cheap stock type one and returned the disty on warranty for another since the module appeared to have swollen somewhat. Not a problem since. Good luck! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ricearu Posted October 3, 2009 Share Posted October 3, 2009 I had a loose ground on the starter bolt/bracket. If I hit the brakes or blinkers, the load would kill my car, sometimes it would just low volt the radio Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edrach Posted October 3, 2009 Share Posted October 3, 2009 Make sure you have a new fuel filter installed. Not the vapor separator in the engine compartment, but the fuel filter at the fuel pump underneath the car. For the Hitachi distributor only: If you find that the times you can get it to turn over but it won't start, check for spark. No spark and I would replace the ignitor module inside the distributor. You're having the perfect scenario for an ignitor going out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michael appel Posted October 4, 2009 Share Posted October 4, 2009 Wish I saw this earlier but it is your fuel pupmp relay its uder the dash and to the left it is a 2inch by 2inch box with three or four wire connecter going to it it is a 5.00 part at the junkyard and they normally work but it has happened to my car and a friends car they kinda let go intermittently then they will quit where in oregon city do you live my buddy lives next to mikes drive through over by mountain tech Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlyB0y Posted October 4, 2009 Author Share Posted October 4, 2009 (edited) Wow, lots of good stuff here thanks all! Michael, I am just above Mt Tech about 2-3 miles away, to be honest, you all have been working harder on this than I have! Hope it's not just jealousy, because I have been out riding my mt. bike (Nishiki) instead. I'm going to start with the basics, spark, fuel and the air filter is definitely clean, that's as far as I got last friday, gonna check the filters and that relay if I have spark, then make sure the carb isn't plugged at the float valve. You know, it's pretty kewl that your in Wilsonville, Michael, I am going to be biking to Newburg this week for a nice test of my endurance. I'll try and get at least the basics covered on the brat before I go, but I fear it will turn into more than I can afford once again, was planning on going to Montana middle of this month. Edited October 5, 2009 by FlyB0y Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlyB0y Posted October 10, 2009 Author Share Posted October 10, 2009 Wish I saw this earlier but it is your fuel pupmp relay its uder the dash and to the left it is a 2inch by 2inch box with three or four wire connecter going to it it is a 5.00 part at the junkyard and they normally work but it has happened to my car and a friends car they kinda let go intermittently then they will quit where in oregon city do you live my buddy lives next to mikes drive through over by mountain tech Oh, hey! I know, I will just by-pass the relay and make sure it's just tied to a hot lead that is only hot with the ignition on. I did this on my XT6 and it seemed to pose no problems, the only thing I can think of that might be a problem with my brat is since it's been weberized, I only have one fuel line going into the carb, no return line. My understanding with the XT6 was that it had a by-pass so that even though the pump would run continuous, if it started to over-pressurize it would just go through the by-pass, is this by-pass in the pump it's self? P.S. I have confirmed it's not an electrical issue, and I have good flow from the fuel pump, so the relay makes a lot of sense at this point, thanks! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlyB0y Posted October 10, 2009 Author Share Posted October 10, 2009 Ok, today I drove it around and it ran just fine around the block, so I headed down towards mountain tech to buy a positive cable, and it quit on me, and I was able to determine for sure it's not spark I am loosing with a timing light. This brings me to conclude that since I have fuel and spark, the carb must be due for a cleaning, it has been sitting a lot the last 2-3 years, going to try that and if I still have issues, I'll have to go deeper again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
7point62fmj Posted October 10, 2009 Share Posted October 10, 2009 On my Brat when I would shift in to 2nd the lights would flutter and my gauges would go out of wack and the car wanted to die. I found out latter that the motor did not have a good ground and was ground via the motor mounts and they would move around during shifting. so I ran another ground and it worked great. Now mind you this would only happen durring shifting so checking it with a light would not show any thing while Idle. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akc Posted October 11, 2009 Share Posted October 11, 2009 First off I know nothing about cars but my subaru would do similar things and we replaced the fuel pump and filters and messed with the carb. Checked the timing and spark it ended up being none of those things but a little fusable link in a little black box (the box holds 3 ?4) in mine it is next to the overflow water tank but i have a 86 wagon. the link would work its way out or something we ended up bypassing it as it would need to be wiggled every couple of weeks or the car would die everywhere. sometimes it would start right back up and other times it would not start at all. we spent 3 nights working on the car (yes lots of obsenities were spouted) and could not figure it out as a last resort we removed inspected and replaced every fuse and fusable link we could find. It had a very good mechanic friend of ours stumped till we removed the fusable links and put them back in (same ones) and then it started right up. I agree with the jealousy bit I keep telling my husband that my subaru only has problems because it knows he does not like it. If he was just kinder to it maybe it would not break down so much. OF course mine is must be really be mad / jealous at him now it gets new head gaskets, new cv joints, and a new exhaust manifold whenever he has time to fix it. Hopefully that will be ALL for a while or maybe I will get jealous of it. OOPS I forgot to mention NEW HOSES so he does not have to replace the head again soon. (hose blew and raditator drained and son toasted gaskets with a hot engine.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
32ford Posted October 11, 2009 Share Posted October 11, 2009 my brumby did that thing and it turned out to be a cheap ignition module, it woud run for a little bit then stop and refuse to start, then the next day I would start it and it would go for a few minutes and then stop. it drove me crazy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yo'J Posted October 12, 2009 Share Posted October 12, 2009 Ya know, I would just re ground all the engine ground points for good measure. I personally think subaru did a terrible job and use wire sizes not capable for running a 20+ yr old car. I put in monster cable for grounds and there have been no new weird symptoms for a long time now. Cables get old. The sparks got to have some place to go and the stock block ground is really small and sees a lot of action. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skishop69 Posted October 12, 2009 Share Posted October 12, 2009 When it dies and you cant restart it and are cranking and cranking it...does the tach move at all? If it does not it is your coil. The tach gets signal from the coil and if the coil is kaput then it will not register that the motor is turning over. Just throwing that out there. Hate to disagree here, but the signal for the tach comes 'off' of the coil, however, it actually comes from the distributor. The distributor pulses (in this case grounding out) that are sent to the coil are read and displayed by the tach. You'll have a tach reading with a bad coil UNLESS... by some 1 in a billion chance the thing managed to melt down and ground through the outter casing, in which case, you won't have an intermittent problem. It's lights out! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlyB0y Posted November 18, 2009 Author Share Posted November 18, 2009 Yikes! Sorry to post back again so late, life has been a bit busy. Well, I have been riding my bike more and more, so my brat's VERY jealous now! Anyhow, I rebuilt the carb (needed to be cleaned anyway, oh well ) and then it finally clicked that the tach was jumpy, I checked my cap & rotter, not good, this cap has low miles on it, and it looked like it was being cooked pretty good, so I cleaned them up and tried again, then it hit me. Checked my distributor, and wouldn't you know it, there is 1/16 - 1/8 play horizontally on the shaft, and a lot more vertically!! Oh well, I got this ditsy used about 5 yrs or so ago, so I guess I got my money's worth. Not doing the JY special this time though, anyone have advice where to get a good rebuilt cheap? Best I have seen so far is $150 at discount import auto. And where do I look to identify whether it's a ND or Hitachi ditsy? Thanks! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edrach Posted November 18, 2009 Share Posted November 18, 2009 (edited) Stop guessing about the battery, coil and disty. When it craps out, do you have spark? If not, coil or distributor (replace the internal ignitor if it's a Hitachi). If you have spark, it's a fuel issue. Besides the vapor separator in the engine compartment (looks like a fuel filter, but isn't), there's a fuel filter on the fuel pump plate located under your fuel tank. That filter is often overlooked and will behave just like you describe; i.e. often and intermittantly. If I were a betting man, I'd bet on that fuel filter. If you need a used, but known working distributor, drop me a PM. Edited November 19, 2009 by edrach Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edrach Posted November 18, 2009 Share Posted November 18, 2009 Best I have seen so far is $150 at discount import auto. And where do I look to identify whether it's a ND or Hitachi ditsy? Thanks! Take off the distributor cap and the ND has two rectangular black blocks along one side; the Hitachi doesn't have them. ND and Hitachi are pretty interchangeable. I only pull Hitachi distys from the junkyard since I've found them to be easier to fix than the NDs (ignitor is easier to replace). I'm pretty sure I have one if you need one. Drop me a PM. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlyB0y Posted November 18, 2009 Author Share Posted November 18, 2009 Thank you VERY much for the info and the offer Ed! However, I think this time around I will buy a remand, the last used one I had only lasted a few years, and although they aren't that hard to replace, I'd just rather not have to replace it so soon again. Wonder what the life expectancy of a typical remand is? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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