reelst Posted December 12, 2009 Share Posted December 12, 2009 So, my daughter's 98 OBW has the bad HG :-( I've read a bunch of the relevant posts here, shoulda before I bought it, never owned a Subaru before - *used* to think well of them! I'm not mechanically inclined so I have to have someone else work on it. The mechanic I've been going to for quite some time quotes $2900 (!!) 'course that has the timing belt in it too. Any advice on getting it done for less? We're in Salem Oregon. Anyone know good mechanics near here? I'm thinking at least a 2nd opinion (quote really). Anything that possibly could be skipped (the head bolts? only ~$125) Is it worth it? That's what we paid for it! It has 212K. Otherwise it's solid. Thanks, reelst Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idosubaru Posted December 12, 2009 Share Posted December 12, 2009 You got hosed by an unscrupulous seller - they knew it was bad or were flipping it. Head bolts should not be replaced on this motor. If the mechanic is replacing head bolts - go somewhere else that knows how to do Subaru headgaskets. You do not replace the head bolts in subaru engines, any mechanic that doesn't know that or care to look up if they're torque to yield bolts shouldnt' be replacing head gaskets on your car. Typical rate for head gaskets is $1,200, that's what the local dealer charges. Good job for your mechanic replacing the timing belt - that's definitely a good idea and should be done. Lots of info on how to do a proper head gasket job on this forum, a saerch will bring all that up. Price and shop around. I don't know Oregon but there's a number of oregon people on here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
erik litchy Posted December 12, 2009 Share Posted December 12, 2009 that quote is insane Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GLCraig Posted December 12, 2009 Share Posted December 12, 2009 Your Mechanic maybe giving you a high quote because he dose not want to do the job or he padding the quote in case the heads need to be replaced. I do not know of anyone around Salem but here are two shop in the Portland area that can do the job right. http://www.mttechsuba.com/about-us/ http://www.fixmysuby.com/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeneralDisorder Posted December 12, 2009 Share Posted December 12, 2009 (edited) That's out-of-this-world high. The parts alone *might* be around $750 if you used OEM parts from the dealer (some items should only come from the dealer). Maybe another $100 in machine work for the heads to be refinished. That's way out of line on the labor though. That's about a 6 to 8 hour job so labor should be no more than about $600 to $800. I wouldn't expect to see more than about $1500 for a head gasket quote, and that's about what you do see from the dealership's. Your engine has a good amount of miles on it, and those are known for other problems besides head gaskets - thrown rods, and piston slap (benign) are relatively common as well. If the engine runs fine other than the head gasket and hasn't been driven a ton with them bad - I would say go ahead and replace them. If the car is beat to heck and the engine is questionable..... replacing the engine with a good used EJ22 would probably be the better option or just parting out the car and finding another. The EJ22's can be had very cheaply these days. You lose about 30 HP but it's worth the reliability. If you can get the car up to the Portland area I could do the work - either way if you want to swap the engine out or do the head gaskets on the one it's got. I'm typically not the fastest with turn-around but drop it here for a week or so and I can make sure it's done right, with OEM parts, for a good price. GD Edited December 12, 2009 by GeneralDisorder Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mt.HOODrat Posted December 12, 2009 Share Posted December 12, 2009 ya it definately sounds like that guy doesnt want to do it, or he's just shady... thats twice what alot of mechanics would quote for a subie hg. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charm Posted December 12, 2009 Share Posted December 12, 2009 I paid about that for my headgaskets here in Seattle. BUT...that also included a complete reseal of the engine, valve adjustment, timing belt, water pump, tensioner pulley(s), etc. Essentially, when I drove away from the shop, for $2900, I had a nearly new engine. It's been running great for the last 40k. Although there have been other strange and wonderous issues not related to the motor. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeneralDisorder Posted December 12, 2009 Share Posted December 12, 2009 Essentially, when I drove away from the shop, for $2900, I had a nearly new engine. You overpaid. The labor is nearly the same for everything you had done beyond just the head gaskets since all that stuff has to come off to get at them anyway. It should have been about $1000 in labor (typically less) and retail cost of all those parts at the dealer wouldn't run more than $1000. The important part to note is that it doesn't take any extra time for a tech to hang a new part on the engine than it does to hang the old used one (often it actually means less work since you don't have to clean it up) for a job that requires removal of said part anyway. An honest shop would tell you this - a less than honest one would charge extra labor because to the uninitiated, it certainly seems like labor would be involved in putting on each part - that just isn't the case though. You overpaid by around $1000 I would say. GD Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reelst Posted December 12, 2009 Author Share Posted December 12, 2009 You overpaid. The labor is nearly the same for everything you had done beyond just the head gaskets since all that stuff has to come off to get at them anyway. It should have been about $1000 in labor (typically less) and retail cost of all those parts at the dealer wouldn't run more than $1000. The important part to note is that it doesn't take any extra time for a tech to hang a new part on the engine than it does to hang the old used one (often it actually means less work since you don't have to clean it up) for a job that requires removal of said part anyway. An honest shop would tell you this - a less than honest one would charge extra labor because to the uninitiated, it certainly seems like labor would be involved in putting on each part - that just isn't the case though. You overpaid by around $1000 I would say. GD Thanks everyone! Great resource. Esp you GD, I found your comments particularly helpful. I may pm you about helping out, thanks for the offer. I'll post back updates for general interest. reelst Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bheinen74 Posted December 12, 2009 Share Posted December 12, 2009 well, that price is high, but around here, i know of a Subaru that's in the shop for HG's and they are running about 3200 for it. That is typical for places around here, since they dont even know where the engine head is on a subaru What, 2 heads, on a 4cylinder. And the pistons are on the sides? Hmmm. And that is after they tow it with the rear wheels down and wonder why the tranny is toast due to their fault. back on topic. shop around. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charm Posted December 12, 2009 Share Posted December 12, 2009 When comparing prices just make sure you're comparing apples to apples. Smart Service traditionally charges a bit more, not $1000 more, but more. If you've got a great and trust worthy mechanic, spending an extra 10% or so is worth the piece of mind. I wish I could find the receipt from my head gasket repair. They spent 3 days with the car and the list of parts replaced took several pages. I'm going on memory on all of this, but I seem to recall something on the order of 15 hours of labor on mine, not 6. At a shop rate of about (guessing) $70 per hour, that adds up to over $1000 in labor. With multiple pages of parts ranging in price from a few dollars, like an oil filter, to a water pump, $100(?), getting to nearly $3k isn't tough to do. My point is, if what you're looking at is ONLY the headgaskets and maybe the timing belt, $2900 is robbery. For that service, I seem to recall Smart Service (do a search on the forum for them) wanting about $2k. If the shop you're dealing with is one you have an on going relationship with, you trust them, and the list of things they're going to do to the car covers several pages, $2900 can be worth it. Included in that higher price needs to be genuine Subaru parts, and references for the shop from this board and other places. Good luck and be wary of those that make blanket statements on this board. It's bitten me in the past. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeneralDisorder Posted December 12, 2009 Share Posted December 12, 2009 A lot of shops do jack up parts prices - for example the OEM water pump is made by Atsugi - you can buy the one from the dealership for $150 (then the third party shop raises that by 30%), or I can go down the street and buy the same pump for $59 - both made by Atsugi so comming off the same assembly line. There is no difference in the part - just the packaging and the price. But - you have to know what the OEM part looks like, who makes them for Subaru, and have the time/energy to explain to the customer that there is no difference - a big shop hasn't got this luxury and just gives in to using OEM parts from the dealer and charging the customer more for them. It's a CYA thing and it's too hard to explain to every customer the why's/how's of what you are doing - it's much easier to just ask them to open their wallet. The trick is knowing what can/cannot be bought through the aftermarket that is the same quality or better than the OEM parts. Head Gaskets are a good example of a part that should ONLY be bought directly from the dealer. Other items are more of a grey area and thought should be given to the expected lifespan of the vehicle as well as what the plan is for the future of those parts - very often I plan on replacing the tensioners and idler's for the timing belt EVERY time the belt is changed - thus aftermarket idlers with quality japanese bearings are not an issue - only need them to last 60k (or 105k with CA belts) which they certainly will...... knowing where the costs can be cut is important to saving the customer's money which is where the value of a knowledgeable Subaru mechanic comes in over a generic shop. It also helps that I have little to no overhead, no employees, and people like the personal 1-on-1 service. Obviously I can't do the business that a big shop does but I seem to keep busy enough for my liking. You may have had more replaced for $2900 than you remember and the prices for the parts were likely very high. I can tell you right now that I can come in less than $1500 for a head gasket/timing belt/water pump/reseal with all the trimmings and still make it worth my time to do the job. GD Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
subaru360 Posted December 13, 2009 Share Posted December 13, 2009 (edited) Wow they get a lot in the NW to service subarus. Out here in PA, I get $800 labor to do 2.5 DOHC head gaskets. For the people who just want the cheapest possible way out, 2 head gaskets, change the oil and reseal the separator plate, it's $900. Anything else you want changed, timing belt, water pump, idler pullies, other seals, no extra labor charge, it's apart anyway. People in my area would turn around and walk away if quoted $2900. You can buy a nice Outback here for $2000. For the EJ22 swap option, I get $500 to swap the engine. I get used engines, no warranty for $100 and get $100 more to pull it at the EZ pull. $20 for oil and filter and that gets people back on the road for $720. Edited December 13, 2009 by subaru360 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mr.radon Posted December 13, 2009 Share Posted December 13, 2009 Not to mention getting a JDM engine and just dropping it in. Run it till something happens to it. Heck, that price you could buy three JDM's and keep swapping them as they bust. Sorry to hear you got sucked into buying a bad Subaru. A good inspection should have caught this. Always get an inspection if you don;t know what to look for yourself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flowmastered87GL Posted December 13, 2009 Share Posted December 13, 2009 Your Mechanic maybe giving you a high quote because he dose not want to do the job or he padding the quote in case the heads need to be replaced. I do not know of anyone around Salem but here are two shop in the Portland area that can do the job right. http://www.mttechsuba.com/about-us/ http://www.fixmysuby.com/ I second these... I would take it to fixmysuby first, and mttech second (just based on my experiences... have more with fixmysuby) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wxman Posted December 13, 2009 Share Posted December 13, 2009 I paid $1300 at the local dealer for head gaskets on a 2000 Outback earlier this year. They pulled the engine to do the gaskets (the tech's preferred method), resealed the oil pan & separator plate, new rear main seal (all were leaking), and replaced the TB tensioner (he didn't really want to reuse it even though it was only 15K miles old). The front seals were all replaced 15K miles ago with the timing belt. While their labor rates are a bit high in my opinion ($90/hr) they seem very honest and will never do anything not listed in the owners manual unless I ask for it or it is broken. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeneralDisorder Posted December 13, 2009 Share Posted December 13, 2009 they seem very honest and will never do anything not listed in the owners manual unless I ask for it or it is broken. That's a double-edged sword though. There are things that aren't listed in the manual, but should be replaced BEFORE they break. The water pump is a good example. Do you really want to hang a new belt on a water pump with 200k miles on it to save $60? But nowhere in the manual does it indicate the water pump should be changed - nor the belt tensioners or idlers. It is the opinion of most of the people here that have done a lot of these jobs that all that stuff should be replaced at the 2nd timing belt change for 60k belts, and EVERY timing belt change for 105k belts. It's cheap insurance and water pump/idler bearing failures are not that uncommon - I've bought a few cars for exactly that reason. GD Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wxman Posted December 16, 2009 Share Posted December 16, 2009 That's a double-edged sword though. There are things that aren't listed in the manual, but should be replaced BEFORE they break. The water pump is a good example. Do you really want to hang a new belt on a water pump with 200k miles on it to save $60? But nowhere in the manual does it indicate the water pump should be changed - nor the belt tensioners or idlers. It is the opinion of most of the people here that have done a lot of these jobs that all that stuff should be replaced at the 2nd timing belt change for 60k belts, and EVERY timing belt change for 105k belts. It's cheap insurance and water pump/idler bearing failures are not that uncommon - I've bought a few cars for exactly that reason. GD Actually, I spoke too generally. They did suggest the tensioner and water pump at the timing belt change. They said the idlers were fine...maybe I should have pushed them on it. I did push for all the front seals though. I just meant they didn't load up the bill with a bunch of extra services that were simply money makers. I don't do as much of my own car work as I used to, though sometimes I think I should. I'm pretty much at the brakes, fluids, and filters level of mechanical ability (I've done external parts like water pumps & alternators if they were not too hard to get to). I've only really torn into a couple engines in my life and they were pre crazy emission American cars. I guess I'm more intimidated by all the extra vacuum hoses and computer controls. In any case, I still like to be car savy. I appreciate all the information you guys put on this site. It has helped me learn the somewhat unique needs/wants of a Subaru engine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roamer Posted December 21, 2009 Share Posted December 21, 2009 So, my daughter's 98 OBW has the bad HG :-( I've read a bunch of the relevant posts here, shoulda before I bought it, never owned a Subaru before - *used* to think well of them! I'm not mechanically inclined so I have to have someone else work on it. The mechanic I've been going to for quite some time quotes $2900 (!!) 'course that has the timing belt in it too. Any advice on getting it done for less? We're in Salem Oregon. Anyone know good mechanics near here? I'm thinking at least a 2nd opinion (quote really). Anything that possibly could be skipped (the head bolts? only ~$125) Is it worth it? That's what we paid for it! It has 212K. Otherwise it's solid. Thanks, reelst Your mechanic probably does not want to do the job hence the high price or he is robbing you without a gun. You should be able to get new heads, water pump, etc. for around $1600 (even this price is on the high end). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reelst Posted December 24, 2009 Author Share Posted December 24, 2009 Well, just picked up my daughter's OBW yesterday from fixmysuby and I have to say it ran like a top! Very pleased. $1600 (very fair I think) and they did all the xtras, TB, new radiator, seals, and a couple unrelated items. Thanks for all your help everyone I'm glad I asked, you guys saved me a bunch of $ *and* I got her car fixed up great! reelst Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brus brother Posted December 24, 2009 Share Posted December 24, 2009 Christmas came a day early! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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