kclage12 Posted September 15, 2011 Share Posted September 15, 2011 I'm new to this forum and am a mechanic wannabe so please bare with me. I searched the forum with no luck, please advise if this has already been covered.... According to my son who was driving the subie on the interstate at 75 mph - the engine started overheating and then he heard a "snap"..... Had the subie towed to a mechanic who informed me that the timing belt broke and the engine is "toast". So here are my questions: 1. What is the range of damage to the engine with the timing belt breaking? 2. I have been to told that the valves are damaged and I need to remove the cylinder heads. True statement? 3. Do I need to take the engine out to remove the heads? 4. Are there any tests I can perform prior to removing the heads to determine the extent of damage? 5. My family and I love our subie. It has 220k miles and I want to fix it- I will do the work with the help of mechanic friends - any estimate on range of cost for parts..... Thanks in advance for any help! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fairtax4me Posted September 15, 2011 Share Posted September 15, 2011 Bent valves are almost a guarantee. Replace any seized timing components (water pump), hang a new belt, and do a compression test to determine which cylinders have low or no compression. This will tell you if you need to pull off both heads or just one, or if you got lucky and have no valve damage. On the single cam 2.2 you can remove the heads with the engine in the car but it is tricky. On the dual cam 2.5 I have heard it is doable by lifting the engine. If you decide to repair the engine, replace the water pump since it is likely seized (hence the overheating and broken belt) as well as all other timing components including the tensioner if it is the one piece swing arm style. Valves are something like $15 a peice, If any are bent you will need at least two. Head gaskets (Many here recommend Subaru ONLY for the 2.5) are something like $50 each.Intake gaskets are $10 or $15, exhaust manifold gaskets are about the same. Timing components, typically around $200 for the full kit on Ebay. A bit more if you get the kit with all the oil seals. $30-50 per head for milling the head surface flat (highly recommended for the 2.5). Then figure another 25-50 for assorted things like antifreeze, fresh engine oil and filter, broken vacuum hoses, etc. BTW search around here for Timing belt threads, there are a few that have very good info and pics for installing the belt and which marks to use for proper cam and crankshaft alignment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turbone Posted September 15, 2011 Share Posted September 15, 2011 The first thing you want to check is the timing belt, make sure if its broke or not. Removal of the covers will tell you if it is. If the belt is broken you might as well yank the engine because its going to need a lot of work. A snapped t-belt at 75mph is going to do some internal damage for sure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bheinen74 Posted September 15, 2011 Share Posted September 15, 2011 Please to Subaru, make a non interference motor again kinda like the ej22. end Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idosubaru Posted September 15, 2011 Share Posted September 15, 2011 you can hang a belt and hope you got lucky - a friend did a couple weeks ago. hung a belt and it ran perfect after breaking while idling. i doubt you'll be that lucky but the engine will start with just a belt on - no need to install timing covers, crank pulley, alt/power steering belts - just hang a timing belt and see for 5 seconds. you'll likely need to replace bent valves, but that's it. it's not that hard or a big deal on these motors. use Subaru headgaskets only. buy the $160 or less timing kits on ebay which include the belt, all pulleys, and tensioner. no way you want to trust the original pulleys and tensioner past 200,000 miles. do it right and follow those recommendations and another 100,000 miles here you come. but that's a personal preference kind of thing, there's not right or wrong or best or easiest. i would do this engine in the car, pulling motors sucks IMO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kclage12 Posted September 22, 2011 Author Share Posted September 22, 2011 Thanks for the responses... I hope to dive in shortly....nwill let you know how things go. I sure hope I can get another 100k out of "rubie"! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sabaroo Posted September 22, 2011 Share Posted September 22, 2011 My belt jumped due to foreign material @ 30mph , Hardly no damage I just jacked the motor up high nuff for the head bolt to clear the wheel well mine is a EJ22. I bought my stuff online got the GAtes package with water pump for $190 Cdn & bought the upper gasket set which includes head gaskets etc.. MY Subie's got 300,000k Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Dude Posted September 22, 2011 Share Posted September 22, 2011 (edited) Just so you know, the water pump is driven by the smooth backside of the timing belt, not the inside which has cogs (teeth). The idea is IF the water pump siezes the smooth backside of the timing belt will "slip" on the water pump pulley. Of course, the water pump is no longer turning and the car will start to overheat. IF the driver sees the engine is overheating and immediately pulls over to the side of the road and stops the engine there will be no damage to the engine. Now you're looking at replacing valves and possible additional damage from the engine overheating. BTW, usually only valves are only needed after the timing belt break, but rarely the entire engine is trashed due to piston and/or cylinder damage. When a driver sees an car engine overheating he, or she, should stop the car and engine at the earliest possible safe opportunity. No person should be able to sit in the driver seat of a car without this knowledge. Edited September 23, 2011 by The Dude Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gloyale Posted September 22, 2011 Share Posted September 22, 2011 What model/engine? If its an EJ18, your fine. If it's an EJ22, you might be ok. Hang a belt on it and test compression. but bent valves are a possibility.....worth finding out though before tearing it down. If it's an DOHC EJ25, just pull the engine and pull the heads now, definately bent valves. IF by chance it's a SOHC 2.5, you may be in luck also, hang a belt and test compression. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sabaroo Posted October 23, 2011 Share Posted October 23, 2011 (edited) . Edited October 23, 2011 by Sabaroo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Highway_Star Posted October 26, 2011 Share Posted October 26, 2011 buy the $160 or less timing kits on ebay which include the belt, all pulleys, and tensioner. no way you want to trust the original pulleys and tensioner past 200,000 miles. Do you know if the replacement pulleys are the ones with double roller bearings? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kclage12 Posted November 27, 2011 Author Share Posted November 27, 2011 Finally.... I have an update.... Tore into the engine and found a broken exhaust camshaft sprocket on the right side. I ordered new intake and exhaust sprockets (right side only) and will test the compression once I get them installed. Are broken cam sprockets common? Thx k Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnceggleston Posted November 27, 2011 Share Posted November 27, 2011 they are when the toothed idler sprocket seizes up. check it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rooster2 Posted November 27, 2011 Share Posted November 27, 2011 What model/engine? If its an EJ18, your fine. If it's an EJ22, you might be ok. Hang a belt on it and test compression. but bent valves are a possibility.....worth finding out though before tearing it down. If it's an DOHC EJ25, just pull the engine and pull the heads now, definately bent valves. IF by chance it's a SOHC 2.5, you may be in luck also, hang a belt and test compression. Original post said 98 OBW, so highly likely that it is the DOHC 2.5. Like others have said, the valves prolly need replaced. From what I have read on this forum, that breaking the timing belt only damages the valves, with no other internal damage done to the motor. I understand the 4 valves per cylinder collide with one another, but do not collide with the head. I am not a hands on mechanic who has experienced this, but I have read this is so. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kclage12 Posted December 28, 2011 Author Share Posted December 28, 2011 Quick summary... '98 Outback 2.5L dohc engine.... Sprocket broke timing belt came off most likely bent valves but am checking compression before I pull the heads. Question: how do I make certain the cams and crank shafts are lined up properly to install timing belt to check compression? The manual talks about not moving the sprockets when changing the timing belt so you know that everything is lined up to begin with.... But what about when you start with nothing lined up? The manual shows me where all the marks should be on the sprockets and where the piston in cylinder 1 needs to be. Is it that straight forward? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davebugs Posted December 28, 2011 Share Posted December 28, 2011 First off I'd bet heavily that the cam sprockets AREN'T THE problem, but a symptom. Put the crank at TDC first to improve your odds. Then play with cams. I sell a lot of cam sprockets - and you will need them, but they are jsut part of the "crash". I've got used valves too if that makes any sense. And many 97 heads. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MilesFox Posted December 28, 2011 Share Posted December 28, 2011 the pulley probably broke when the valves collided. probably designed to do that to minimise damage. REPLACE THE WATER PUMP, as it was likely the cause of the belt failure. Especially at 220,000 mi. Water pump seizes, engine overheats, and the drag on the pulley snaps the belt. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davebugs Posted December 28, 2011 Share Posted December 28, 2011 the pulley probably broke when the valves collided. probably designed to do that to minimise damage. REPLACE THE WATER PUMP, as it was likely the cause of the belt failure. Especially at 220,000 mi. Water pump seizes, engine overheats, and the drag on the pulley snaps the belt. Usually it's the cogged idler beside it or WP that fails. Search here. Do crank/cam seals, check oil pump screws, new oil pump Oring (no gasket - ultra grey), all new idlers, WP, timing belt, accessory belts. I prefer OEM seals and WP gasket and oil pump Oring. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnceggleston Posted December 28, 2011 Share Posted December 28, 2011 line up the crank sprocket first, as said. when the crank is on the timing alignment mark all 4 pistons are at mid stroke. so there is no way a valve can hit them. turn it the shortest direction to get to the timing mark, counter clock wise if necessary. then rotate the good cams to there timing alignment marks. this will be easy if they are on the passenger side, those cam are at rest, valves closed, when lined up. the driver side will be a little harder because some of those valves are ''loaded'' when lined up. but it can be done. (if you are not ready to put the belt on i would rotate the driver cams until all are at rest and continue working on the engine. this will avoid the cams / valves ''snapping'' shut. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kclage12 Posted January 7, 2012 Author Share Posted January 7, 2012 Good news bad news..... I was able to remove the cylinder heads without taking out the engine or raising the engine! It was a tight fit, but I did it.... That's the good news.... The bad news is that three of the cylinders are toast. According to a mechanic friend, the engine may have overheated and caused the cylinders to "fracture" at the face of the block. I guess the engine may have seized up temporarily after the overheating caused the fractures which caused the intake cam sprocket to bust... What a bummer. Thanks to all of you that offered help, guidance and support!! I could not have done this without you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Dude Posted January 7, 2012 Share Posted January 7, 2012 Sorry about your engine. But thanks for the followup! Followup helps everyone on this board. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gsac132 Posted January 7, 2012 Share Posted January 7, 2012 (edited) I'm new to this forum and am a mechanic wannabe so please bare with me. I searched the forum with no luck, please advise if this has already been covered.... According to my son who was driving the subie on the interstate at 75 mph - the engine started overheating and then he heard a "snap"..... Had the subie towed to a mechanic who informed me that the timing belt broke and the engine is "toast". So here are my questions:1. What is the range of damage to the engine with the timing belt breaking? 2. I have been to told that the valves are damaged and I need to remove the cylinder heads. True statement? 3. Do I need to take the engine out to remove the heads? 4. Are there any tests I can perform prior to removing the heads to determine the extent of damage? 5. My family and I love our subie. It has 220k miles and I want to fix it- I will do the work with the help of mechanic friends - any estimate on range of cost for parts..... Thanks in advance for any help! i just did my 99 and it came back running.rough and i found out that the the engine is A INTEREFERENCE motor and the valves might have been damaged this cost me 1000 at a garage and it still isnt right.and is leaking oil from behind the timing cover.replace all the seals when you tear it down. Edited January 7, 2012 by gsac132 misspelling Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rooster2 Posted January 7, 2012 Share Posted January 7, 2012 Good news bad news..... I was able to remove the cylinder heads without taking out the engine or raising the engine! It was a tight fit, but I did it.... That's the good news.... The bad news is that three of the cylinders are toast. According to a mechanic friend, the engine may have overheated and caused the cylinders to "fracture" at the face of the block. I guess the engine may have seized up temporarily after the overheating caused the fractures which caused the intake cam sprocket to bust... What a bummer. Thanks to all of you that offered help, guidance and support!! I could not have done this without you. Sorry to hear your good news/bad news. With that much damage, you may want to consider replacing the motor with a 2.2 litre. I just had that done on my 98 OBW. Much written on this subject on this forum. The result is a good running Outback at a reasonable cost. Power is down just a tad, but not bad. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jarl Posted January 7, 2012 Share Posted January 7, 2012 Yep. This is a very good opportunity to put an EJ22 in there. My '99 now sports a '95 EJ22 with 90k on it. When looking for alternatives, keep in mind you'll want to do the timing belt, water pump and seals. You'll probably need to replace the (plastic) oil separator. And while you are there, why not... ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Dude Posted January 7, 2012 Share Posted January 7, 2012 i just did my 99 and it came back running.rough and i found out that the the engine is A INTEREFERENCE motor and the valves might have been damaged this cost me 1000 at a garage and it still isnt right.and is leaking oil from behind the timing cover.replace all the seals when you tear it down. If your valves have been bent, they probably haven't been fixed. Because replacing the valves on a Subaru engine that has lost time is usually around $3,500 not $1,000. I recently replaced the timing belt on my 2.5L SOHC myself, alone and for the first time, and there were plenty of "pucker" moments involved. I think that I would want an experienced person next to me the first time I replaced the belt on a DOHC. Replacing the timing belt on the SOHC unassisted was plenty for a first timer. Replacing the timing belt on DOHC unassisited would be considerably out of my comfort range. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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