soobcollektor Posted April 1, 2006 Share Posted April 1, 2006 My 02 Outback with the 3.0 has a hard time starting when the engine is cold, if you stay on the gas it'll stay running but as soon as you let off it dies. Once you get the engine warm it'll idle but very roughly at about 500 rpm. But wont stall (usually)....sometimes turning on the A/c helps keep it running also. The CEL is on but I have no way of getting it tested because its not registered on the road yet and i'd like to get it fixed before I start driving it. Any ideas? Thanks..Tim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nipper Posted April 1, 2006 Share Posted April 1, 2006 You can rent a code scanner if you cant go to the autoparts store. How does it run when its warmed up? nipper Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soobcollektor Posted April 2, 2006 Author Share Posted April 2, 2006 I asked autozone if they rented them and the store around here said no unfortunately. Once its warmed up it runs ok but still only at 500 rpm or so and if you rev it up sometimes it will stall once settled back to idle. If you drive it (unregistered, uninsured, etc on back country road) it drives ok but isnt very responsive. Any ideas on what could it be? Thanks for the help, i'm a total newbie to these 3.0 H-6's Really is an amazing engine though and sounds alot like the 3.3 in my opinion. Tim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rocksnap Posted April 2, 2006 Share Posted April 2, 2006 Sounds like it could be the AMM and/or the ECU engine temp sensor. When cold these cars run primarily off the AMM. As they warm up the transition to O-2 sensors. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soobcollektor Posted April 2, 2006 Author Share Posted April 2, 2006 What is an AMM? ANd where is it located on the engine, Is there any way to test it other than reading the codes? ~Tim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nipper Posted April 2, 2006 Share Posted April 2, 2006 i was going to go for the ecu temp sensor or O2 sensor. i would imagine the test procedures are the same as with the 4 cyl for both. i can email you the scans from the haynes manual as that may help. nipper Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soobcollektor Posted April 2, 2006 Author Share Posted April 2, 2006 Awesome thanks so much I really appreciate it... my e-mail is soobcollektor@hotmail.com Would the ecu temp sensor cause a fluctuating idle also, before this started happening the car start right up and stay in high idle no matter how warm the enine was, then after you took it for a run and shifted into park the idle would go up to around 1700 then down to 750 then back up again very rapidly, Then one day I started it and this happened no start and extremely low idle once warmed up. Thanks again Tim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1 Lucky Texan Posted April 2, 2006 Share Posted April 2, 2006 Unless you have multiple problems, temp sensor may not explain your symptoms. What is the condition and history of the car? Any modifications or repair work? When did the problem start? Was anything done to the car before this happened? Has more than one tank of gas been used since it began? (TPS, maybe bad gas, maybe bad coil/wires...I dunno) Carl Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
subeman90 Posted April 2, 2006 Share Posted April 2, 2006 did you try asking that guy in downtown Meadville if maybe he can toss you an idea or 2? I hear he is a decient guy to deal with. If I was comming out anythime soon i would lend you a hand but I don't forsee a trip to meadville anytime soon. BTW, My buddy owns that COOL 101. whatever station out there. Do you know him? And a long time ago...on a very dark day in history I got married in meadville at the church on the diamond with the red doors. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soobcollektor Posted April 2, 2006 Author Share Posted April 2, 2006 I really couldnt tell you the history of the car, the car is in good condition and as far as I know there has been no major repair work done to it. No modifications have been done to the car either. The problem has been happeneing ever since I bought it, thats why I got it cheap. I filled the gas tank with 93 octane when I brought the car home but that gas is still in there. Subeman, The Subaru guy in Meadville i'd prefer not to deal with, hes flat out a con artist, not to bash him on here but you should see what he sells and how much he sells it for, plus my mom's b/f used to know him and could tell you some crazy stories about stuff hes done. I also work with an ex-mechanic of his...trust me, abslutely unbelievable. Anyways, the car is at my dads, its where I store most of my vehicles because my appartment here in Meadville doesnt have the parkign accomodations for more than a few cars. I found a code reader at wal-mart, I think im goin to buy it and use it then return it when i'm done with it:grin: That way i'll have some idea of codes to post on here and a little more info to work with. Thanks tim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blitz Posted April 2, 2006 Share Posted April 2, 2006 Other than the fact that it appears to be running out of air when the throttle blade is closed, how does it run during normal driving? (Just go down the side street and back, since it's not legal) Also: How many miles? Service history? Any traces of mocha/latte-colored slime showing up on the inside of the oil-filler tube or under the cap? **** ******! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soobcollektor Posted April 2, 2006 Author Share Posted April 2, 2006 Seems to run fine when driven, just a bit sliggish sometimes others it accelerates fine, 90,000 miles No service history And nothing under the oil filler cap or even in the oil as I just changed it. ~Tim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1 Lucky Texan Posted April 2, 2006 Share Posted April 2, 2006 My 02 Outback with the 3.0 has a hard time starting when the engine is cold, if you stay on the gas it'll stay running but as soon as you let off it dies. Once you get the engine warm it'll idle but very roughly at about 500 rpm. But wont stall (usually)....sometimes turning on the A/c helps keep it running also. The CEL is on but I have no way of getting it tested because its not registered on the road yet and i'd like to get it fixed before I start driving it. Any ideas? Thanks..Tim One thing the above kinda makes me wonder about. Will the car start initially without your foot on the gas pedal? The problem is, many cars evidently use the initial non-depressed position of the gas pedal to set a 'zero point' for the ECU. If you literally are have to hold the pedal down to START the car - that can confues the ECU. just a WAG Carl Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soobcollektor Posted April 2, 2006 Author Share Posted April 2, 2006 Yeah the car will start without me pressing the gas pedal but it immediately dies after that unless I give it gas and keep the rpms up (+/- 2000 rpm). I have to do this until the car reaches operting temp or it will stall again. ~tim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
subeman90 Posted April 2, 2006 Share Posted April 2, 2006 just for craps and giggles....go to autozone and get a can of STP throttle body cleaner and spray the throttle plate with it (follow the instructions on the can). I did this to my impreza and in 5 min it was a totally different car... Seriously...try it it is only like $5. Also I got a can of MAF cleaner too and that really made things go a lot better for me. Good thing to know about the guy in M-ville....I'll put that guy on the don't deal with list I keep in the back of my mind. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andyjo Posted April 2, 2006 Share Posted April 2, 2006 could be a long shot, but check all your vaccum lines, maybe you pulled one by accedent, or you have a leak... that would do it... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soobcollektor Posted April 4, 2006 Author Share Posted April 4, 2006 Update: I borrowed an OBD2 code reader reader, I'll check the engine for its code(s) and post back what I find out. Thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soobcollektor Posted April 4, 2006 Author Share Posted April 4, 2006 Just got back from reading the codes, or at least attempting to. I tried probably 20 times and got an error message every time. I cant get it to link with the scanner, I know the scanner works because I linked up my 99 Outback and it worked no problems. Could I possibly have a bad computer. There is power at the cars connector because it turns on the scanner but just gives me an error messageafter trying to connect to the car for liek 5-10 secs., I wiggled and jiggled the plug and still nothing, yet when hooked up to the 99 it was fine. I have gotten somewhat of a history on the car, the car was a flood recovery vehicle, but I see absolutley NO signs of water in the interior at all, could it possibly have fried the computer since they are on the floor? I have pulled trim pieces and smelled sound insulation NOTHING as far as damp or water, but maybe just enough got on the inside of the car and hit the computer I dunno. Car absolutely will not start until I hold the gas 1/4 way down and keep it there or it will stall until the temp guage is at 1/2 then it idles roughly at 400 or so RPM and dies when you rev it up (rpms go up and instead of settling back at 400 it just dies) Any Ideas? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1 Lucky Texan Posted April 4, 2006 Share Posted April 4, 2006 I wouldn't assume the ECU is bad BUT I WOULD assume every connector may need cleaning/re-seating. Probably the closer to the ground the more so. Cehck the spare tire well for sand. If found, probably the water went up at least that far. And the diff may need a fluid change - I dunno. Likely someone here could guide you better than me. carl Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soobcollektor Posted April 4, 2006 Author Share Posted April 4, 2006 I checked everything on the interior, everything is clean absolutely no signs of water, and really no sings of anyone covering it or cleaning it up, Car has that LL Bean leather smell and everything. The OBD2 connector looked fine also. Im just clueless, I always seem to get the impossible ones to diagnose, granted the car was cheap but still.. Thanks for everyones help and keep those suggestions/ideas comming. Also, it seems to be DRINKING gas, it had a complete full tank when I brought it home and just from some idling and a few illegal trips for test runs its gone down like below 3/4...that seems alot to me unless its got the typical subaru gas guage problems Tim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cookie Posted April 5, 2006 Share Posted April 5, 2006 Have you ever heard of Stabilent? Look it up on the web. It can be applied to bad connections and it can help to reestablish contact. i'd be tempted to remove all the connectors and disassemble the computer down as far as possible and apply Stabilent. It sounds to me that at best you are running in limp mode. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soobcollektor Posted April 5, 2006 Author Share Posted April 5, 2006 I've never heard of that before, Should I do it to the connectors inside the car or under the hood as well? Could it really be in limp mode and what if I disconnected the battery, would that reset anything? Tim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1 Lucky Texan Posted April 5, 2006 Share Posted April 5, 2006 You really need to either read the ECU for codes, or begin testing each sensor invidually. It might be interesting if you could somehow borrow a known good ECU to try quickly. And yeah, you can disconnect the neg batt terminal and tap on the brake pedal - with 30 minutes or so, reconnect the batt. and the ECU should be cleared. Did it ever run correctly for you? Did something happen immediately before it began to run poorly? Disconnected sensors, a major vacuum leak, bad ECU might cause these problems. There are 2-3 sensors that might also. If it was running and sucked in a bunch or water suddenly - it may hydrolocked and damaged a rod or pirston rings - or maybe cauesd it to slip a tooth on the timing belt. If someone can keep it running long enough, a strip of paper held at the tailpipe may try to 'suck in' if there is a stuck valve or bad cam timing. If one sparkplug looks distinctly different from the others might point to a bad injector or valve or something. Carl Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soobcollektor Posted April 5, 2006 Author Share Posted April 5, 2006 You really need to either read the ECU for codes, or begin testing each sensor invidually. It might be interesting if you could somehow borrow a known good ECU to try quickly. And yeah, you can disconnect the neg batt terminal and tap on the brake pedal - with 30 minutes or so, reconnect the batt. and the ECU should be cleared. Did it ever run correctly for you? Did something happen immediately before it began to run poorly? Disconnected sensors, a major vacuum leak, bad ECU might cause these problems. There are 2-3 sensors that might also. If it was running and sucked in a bunch or water suddenly - it may hydrolocked and damaged a rod or pirston rings - or maybe cauesd it to slip a tooth on the timing belt. If someone can keep it running long enough, a strip of paper held at the tailpipe may try to 'suck in' if there is a stuck valve or bad cam timing. If one sparkplug looks distinctly different from the others might point to a bad injector or valve or something. Carl I have no way of borrowing a good ecu, I looked into that and there are no H-6's in ANY junkyards around here and unofortunately I don't know anyone with an H-6 that I could try. If anyone has one to sell or knows where to get a good one let me know It has never run correctly, when I bought it it would run in high idle as I said in one of the first posts that as it warmed up the idle would rapidly go up and down but it would drive fine, then one day when I went to start it it just wouldnt unless I gace it some gas and held it there so it would run, and thats where I am now. It has a timing chain and it runs extremely smoothly when you rev it up so I doubt that theres anything internally wrong, its mainly an idle issue. :confused: ~ Tim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1 Lucky Texan Posted April 5, 2006 Share Posted April 5, 2006 I have no way of borrowing a good ecu, I looked into that and there are no H-6's in ANY junkyards around here and unofortunately I don't know anyone with an H-6 that I could try. If anyone has one to sell or knows where to get a good one let me know It has never run correctly, when I bought it it would run in high idle as I said in one of the first posts that as it warmed up the idle would rapidly go up and down but it would drive fine, then one day when I went to start it it just wouldnt unless I gace it some gas and held it there so it would run, and thats where I am now. It has a timing chain and it runs extremely smoothly when you rev it up so I doubt that theres anything internally wrong, its mainly an idle issue. :confused: ~ Tim There's no reason not to get the ECU to read out it's code. So, either the connector itself needs replacing or something else is wrong there - there actually are about 3-4 'types' of OBDII protocols so maybe a different scanner would work. There are components like IAC and MAF and TPS, etc. that could cause problems like you experience. But likely those would set a code, which you can't read. That means either blindly swapping stuff out, or diagnosing individual sensors per Subaru technical manuals, or getting the ECU fixed. I see no reason not get the ECU code reading issue repaired - exactly what that will lead to - who knows? Carl Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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