yameyer Posted August 28, 2006 Share Posted August 28, 2006 Hello All, I recently had the head gasket, timing belt, and coils and wires to spark plugs replaced on my 2000 Subaru Outback (85,000 miles on it) by Subaru dealership. (Head gasket was replaced free of charge due to recall and I had the other items replaced "while they were there" as they did need replacement.) Since receiving the car back from the dealership, I have noticed that the car now needs an idle adjustment, the gas pedal vibrates, and the engine sounds very rough (my 81 Subaru used to sound like this when it needed an oil change) and loud. Brought the car back to the dealership and took a ride with the mechanic who says car sounds just great--that if there was an idle problem, the 'check engine light would go on" and, anyway, that they cannot do anything about the idle because the computer does that. As for engine sound, said that it sounds like any ole Outback should. But, I KNOW my car and something is wrong. The idle is definately off (although intermittently) and the gas pedal vibration and engine noise are new to my car. I am bringing my car back to the dealership tomorrow but expect that I will be dismissed as "silly woman" so I want to be armed with an understanding of what might be going on with my vehicle. Does anyone have any idea about what might be going on with my car? Thanks so much for any advice or thoughts.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Olnick Posted August 28, 2006 Share Posted August 28, 2006 Only advice I can offer is stand your ground, be pleasant but persistent. You know your car better than anyone, even a mechanic on a short test drive. Sounds like you're a long time Subaru owner. How long have you had this car? Did you buy it from that dealership? Talk to the Service Manager, explain your concerns just as you laid them out here for us. If he doesn't offer any help, ask to speak to the Manager (or Owner) of the dealership. If that doesn't help, call Subaru of America and contact the Regional Rep for your area. You paid your money, you deserve satisfaction. Just stand up for your rights. Good luck--and let us know how it goes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brus brother Posted August 28, 2006 Share Posted August 28, 2006 I second Olnick. Not only did you pay your money but Subaru of America paid as well for the head gasket aspect SO, they too have an interest in having had the work performed well. It may be something as simple as the air box containing the air filter closed correctly... let them figure it out. Only advice I can offer is stand your ground, be pleasant but persistent. You know your car better than anyone, even a mechanic on a short test drive. Sounds like you're a long time Subaru owner. How long have you had this car? Did you buy it from that dealership? Talk to the Service Manager, explain your concerns just as you laid them out here for us. If he doesn't offer any help, ask to speak to the Manager (or Owner) of the dealership. If that doesn't help, call Subaru of America and contact the Regional Rep for your area. You paid your money, you deserve satisfaction. Just stand up for your rights. Good luck--and let us know how it goes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yameyer Posted August 28, 2006 Author Share Posted August 28, 2006 Thanks for the advice! I have had this car for about three years -- I am the second owner having purchased it directly from the first owner. It was originally purchased in another state. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cookie Posted August 28, 2006 Share Posted August 28, 2006 If you don't get satisfaction take it to an independent Subaru mechanic you trust for an opinion of what is wrong. Thay had a lot of suff out to so the ehad gaskets and they is a lot of opportunity to make an error. Soemtimes even just bending plug wires (which you have to do to pull the heads) can cause them to start making the engine run roughly. Leaving a msall vacum hose or a wire off is a common problem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nipper Posted August 28, 2006 Share Posted August 28, 2006 Genral rule of thumb "it didnt run like this before you worked ont it" stand your ground. If they have another 2000 on the lot have them start the other one and show them side by side its not right. nipper Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idosubaru Posted August 28, 2006 Share Posted August 28, 2006 ignition wires, air filter, vacuum hoses, etc.. maybe ask if they could do a quick visual check on easy items like those to start with. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ericem Posted August 28, 2006 Share Posted August 28, 2006 Ya they could have easily forgot to reconnect a vacuum line, which could cause the vehicle to run rough. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
msmithmmx Posted August 29, 2006 Share Posted August 29, 2006 Its simple, you did not have the problem before and now you do. Let them find the problem and when they do ask them if that system could have been effected when they replaced the HG Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yameyer Posted August 31, 2006 Author Share Posted August 31, 2006 Hello again-- Well, I am on my way to pick up my Subaru again from the dealership. They said that they drove it around (the rep and a mechanic) and did not notice erratic idle, feel gas pedal vibration, or hear louder engine noise. The service rep suggests that maybe the engine needs to settle down after the head gasket, timing belt, wire and coil replacement. I asked, as per all the advice I received on this forum, if they checked vaccum hoses, air filter box, wires, etc. According to the rep, they did all this and everything looks fine. So I don't know what else to do. My $32,000 Subaru now sounds and drives like my old , run-into-the-ground, $1,000 Subaru 1981 and 1984 did (miss those old Subarus!) -- or my 91 Subaru, for that matter. So I am taking it home to drive it some more and document problems, once again. I will try this one more time and then begin to contact the "higher ups". I plan on changing out spark plugs. Any ideas on other things that I can replace in an effort to mitigate this engine noise and gas pedal vibration? I want to begin ruling out things so that I can keep ahead of the dealership. General advice or thoughts on my situation? Thanks for all your help! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idosubaru Posted August 31, 2006 Share Posted August 31, 2006 i'd take it for a test drive with them and point out exactly what you're talking about. "settling" after a headgasket job doesn't take that long, a few miles at most so that's a BS comment on their part unless you haven't driven it much. i'm assuming you've put some miles on it. wires should be Subaru OEM only, don't use any aftermarket ones on this engine, (except magnecor, but most people don't use those). it's not very forgiving. same with plugs, use NGK plugs (that's what subaru uses). an ignition problem like that would typically give a check engine light though as a "Cylinder # ? Misfire". so you might be doing all that for nothing. i like the idea of driving yours and then driving one on their lot...and seeing firsthand what the difference is. this isn't your fault. how long was the headgasket bad? what happened? how long did you drive it while it was overheating? there's the possibility of internal engine issues depending how much it overheated or if there was any significant amount of coolant and oil mixing. it's not likley but if you drove it while overheating for any length of time it is certainly possible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yameyer Posted August 31, 2006 Author Share Posted August 31, 2006 The headgasket began leaking more than six months ago, I think. We did not know that there was a recall so were waiting until we had enough money to pay for the replacement. One month ago, smelled burning oil (after driving for more than an hour in 80+ degree weather with AC on) and brought it into our local repair shop. This is what they said: "...looks as if there is oil leakage at the rack and pinion output shaft. Added tracer dye into the oil in order to aid in the diagnosis of oil leakage. After driving to reach normal operating parameters (approx warmed up +2 miles), found that the cylinder head on the right side (passenger side) is leaking at the seam directly above the oil filter and at the back end of the same seam also on the bottom. The left cylinder is leaking more profoundly at the rear of it's seam directly above the rack and pinion input shaft." The car has never overheated. Never had to add coolant. The only thing that clued us in to a problem was burning oil smell. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J A Blazer Posted August 31, 2006 Share Posted August 31, 2006 Sounds to me like you had a leaking valve cover gasket, not head gasket. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yameyer Posted August 31, 2006 Author Share Posted August 31, 2006 Oh, gosh, now I am confused. So would that mean that they had to replace the head gasket to fix the valve cover gasket? The Subaru dealership invoice says this: "Customer states headgaskets leaking. Advise. Verified headgaskets leaking coolant. We removed engine and disassembled for repair. We replaced head gaskets and all necessary seals and gaskets to complete repair..." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mwatt Posted August 31, 2006 Share Posted August 31, 2006 Oh, gosh, now I am confused. So would that mean that they had to replace the head gasket to fix the valve cover gasket? The Subaru dealership invoice says this: "Customer states headgaskets leaking. Advise. Verified headgaskets leaking coolant. We removed engine and disassembled for repair. We replaced head gaskets and all necessary seals and gaskets to complete repair..." the engine had to be removed from the vehicle to replace the head gaskets and now you're noticing a vibration or rumble that wasn't there before (you mentioned the engine "sounds rough and loud") ? I wonder if a motor mount is collapsing? You may want to have the dealer inspect the motor mounts. If they're not collapsed, they should try loosening the motor mounts, starting the engine and shutting it off (if it's an automatic they should shift it from "P" to "R" to "D", and then to "P" again before shutting it off), then re-tightening the motor mounts. This helps to "normalize" an engine that's slightly out-of-position, which would lead to a rumbling/vibration. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Olnick Posted September 1, 2006 Share Posted September 1, 2006 The car has never overheated. Never had to add coolant. The only thing that clued us in to a problem was burning oil smell. Just so I can better understand: Even with the hot oil smell the car was NOT exhibiting any of the problems you now have--noise, rough running, vibrations? If that's the case I'd give them one more chance to make good. If they put you off again call Subaru and talk to the Regional Rep (and don't be shy about letting the dealership know that's what you intend to do.) You deserve satisfaction, either with the operation of the car or with their explanation. And it doesn't sound like the latter's going to happen! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yameyer Posted September 1, 2006 Author Share Posted September 1, 2006 the engine had to be removed from the vehicle to replace the head gaskets and now you're noticing a vibration or rumble that wasn't there before (you mentioned the engine "sounds rough and loud") ? I wonder if a motor mount is collapsing? You may want to have the dealer inspect the motor mounts. If they're not collapsed, they should try loosening the motor mounts, starting the engine and shutting it off (if it's an automatic they should shift it from "P" to "R" to "D", and then to "P" again before shutting it off), then re-tightening the motor mounts. This helps to "normalize" an engine that's slightly out-of-position, which would lead to a rumbling/vibration. Thanks for the information, I will keep it in mind for my next trip to the dealership. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yameyer Posted September 1, 2006 Author Share Posted September 1, 2006 Just so I can better understand: Even with the hot oil smell the car was NOT exhibiting any of the problems you now have--noise, rough running, vibrations? If that's the case I'd give them one more chance to make good. If they put you off again call Subaru and talk to the Regional Rep (and don't be shy about letting the dealership know that's what you intend to do.) You deserve satisfaction, either with the operation of the car or with their explanation. And it doesn't sound like the latter's going to happen! Yes, you have it right. Even with the the hot oil smell, the car was not exhibiting any of those problems. That said, I drove it back from the dealership today and, while the idle remains erratic, the engine seems less loud. Not sure if I am just becoming used to it or if it indeed has quieted down. I still feel gas pedal vibration -- it tickles. I will take it on several long drives this weekend in the hot weather to check the car out. And I will take your advice regarding the chance to "make it good" and then taking this to the Regional Rep. Thanks. Regarding the 90K tune-up, I had planned on having it done at local repair shop but Subaru dealership said that it was not a good idea stating that repair shops only drain the fluids and do not use Subaru parts. Subaru dealership, on the other hand, says that they flush the system and use Subaru parts. According to the dealership, this is why they charge about $400 more than the local repair shop to do the tune-up. Is this a scam or is it in my car's best interest to have the tune-up done at Subaru? Thoughts? (Thanks for everyone's input!! Have not touched the ulcer pills in days!) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brus brother Posted September 1, 2006 Share Posted September 1, 2006 Is it your wallet that is being flushed and drained? Why don't you wait until you see how they treat you over the latest "work" to decide if you need such "premium" service going forward. As an earlier post questioned, it sounded from the description that you needed valve cover gaskets. This relatively simple and inexpensive procedure would not have necessitated removing the engine or doing the head gaskets. Subaru dealership, on the other hand, says that they flush the system Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BIGBLUE1212 Posted September 1, 2006 Share Posted September 1, 2006 hey, dealerships are brutal i used to take my chrysler minivan (yes i know its not a subaru) to the dealership and within a week there was another problem....so i decided to take it to a private shop the next time i had a problem and told them not to fix it. I took it back to the dealership and told them what the problem was...they fixed it and i then brought it back to the private shop.....turns out they had torqued bolts to the wrong pressure and didnt even tighten other things.....so i had them write a report and i took it to the dealership....they ultimately fired the mechanic who worked on my vehicle and apparently my ole reliable and totally awesome van was finished due to his mistake.(its actually my dad's van) so my dad was offered a deal (to avoid legal action) he would get 10000 dollars off a new van of his choice. try it out you never know if they are screwing you over or not Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2X2KOB Posted September 1, 2006 Share Posted September 1, 2006 Two things that spring to mind after an engine removal/head gasket job that could cause rough running/excessive noise & vibration are that the cam timing is a tooth off (although wouldn't the cam position sensor know this and throw a code? Are there one or two of these sensors?) or possibly the exhaust was installed in a slightly different position which is causing it to hit some solid part of the car underneath. The motor mount preload mentioned previously is also a possibility. I wish I could drive that car and see what it's doing, firsthand. Please keep us posted on how things go, we're interested. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cookie Posted September 1, 2006 Share Posted September 1, 2006 After the local Subaru dealer replaced my clutch and failed to do the pilot bearing (requiering engine removal the next year) I have never been back to the dealer. It really depends on who does the job as my BMW dealer was excellent for the four years of warranty work. It should not be necessary for you to have a car that runs worse after major work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SparkyCNY Posted October 24, 2006 Share Posted October 24, 2006 I have exactly the same rough idle problem with my 2003 Outback Wagon. The head gaskets were replace because of an external coolant leak. I don't think any coolant got into the oil. The dealer has been useless without the CEL coming on. They think the roughness "isn't that bad." They cleaned the throttle body but that didn't help. I'm going to change the spark plugs and see if that helps. and clean the Mass airflow Sensor. The OWB has 84,000 miles. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Petersubaru Posted January 29, 2007 Share Posted January 29, 2007 you know < I have this problem all the time...you take the car to the mechanic and all of sudden their seems to be no problem..I am sure many of us here(men) can relate to your story...I would suggest that if you can, stay with the car outside the dealership, let it run until it hesitates and then quickly get the service manager ...the CEL will not always come on for every potential problem...for ex: about 3mths ago my '01 outback had some hesitation, not very often and there was no CEL on... the mechanic suggested that I change out the front O2 sensor because the car was sitting for a very along time between start-ups(certainly not at there price)..I did and everything has been fine since...your problem also could be a cracked spark plug insulator..or perhaps one plug wire that even new and out of the box is faulty...coil/wires/plugs,,to many ignition items changed at once...maybe the dealership would have some of these used items hanging around for you to isolate the problem Hello All, I recently had the head gasket, timing belt, and coils and wires to spark plugs replaced on my 2000 Subaru Outback (85,000 miles on it) by Subaru dealership. (Head gasket was replaced free of charge due to recall and I had the other items replaced "while they were there" as they did need replacement.) Since receiving the car back from the dealership, I have noticed that the car now needs an idle adjustment, the gas pedal vibrates, and the engine sounds very rough (my 81 Subaru used to sound like this when it needed an oil change) and loud. Brought the car back to the dealership and took a ride with the mechanic who says car sounds just great--that if there was an idle problem, the 'check engine light would go on" and, anyway, that they cannot do anything about the idle because the computer does that. As for engine sound, said that it sounds like any ole Outback should. But, I KNOW my car and something is wrong. The idle is definately off (although intermittently) and the gas pedal vibration and engine noise are new to my car. I am bringing my car back to the dealership tomorrow but expect that I will be dismissed as "silly woman" so I want to be armed with an understanding of what might be going on with my vehicle. Does anyone have any idea about what might be going on with my car? Thanks so much for any advice or thoughts.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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