The Dude Posted November 18, 2006 Share Posted November 18, 2006 In America, the land of the free, the SUV, and cheap gas, the Subaru is thought of primarily as a AWD car. But in Europe, Subarus are renowned as tow vehicles. Check the UK Subaru website. The 2006 Forester equiped with a 2.0L gasoline (petrol) engine is rated at a 3,410lbs (1500 Kg) maximum towing limit. The 2006 Forester equiped with the 2.5L diesel maxes out at a prodigious 4,400 lbs (2000 Kg) towing limit. So, what gives? Why are US Subarus speced at only 2,200 lbs (1000 Kg)? I've looked into it, US and UK Subarus are virtually the same vehicle. The Brits get smaller engines because petroleum products are so highly taxed there. So, why the the big difference? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sailhard Posted November 18, 2006 Share Posted November 18, 2006 I've noticed this too...I figure the towing distances ar shorter, roads more level and cooler climate than subie wants to warranty. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
backwoodsboy Posted November 18, 2006 Share Posted November 18, 2006 I dont have any hard #s to back me up here..... but Ive ALWAYS pushed my soobs well beyond their "factory" towing/hauling limits for the US. My 4-cyl Baja keeps right up with my parents V6 dodge dakota when it comes to towing. I have NEVER had any trouble due to towing stuff, and I always kinda felt like the vehicles could handle MORE if they had to! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nipper Posted November 18, 2006 Share Posted November 18, 2006 I've noticed this too...I figure the towing distances ar shorter, roads more level and cooler climate than subie wants to warranty. Thats what i would bet too. WHen we tow here, we tend to tow farther and have steeper climbs on average. DOnt kid yourself, towing regularly does put a lot of stress on a vehical, and in general shortens the engines life. We hold on to our cars much longer, and put a lot more miles on them then the Brits, or for that matter most of europe. Lowering the numbers means a longer lasting vehical. nipper Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ericem Posted November 18, 2006 Share Posted November 18, 2006 Wait wait wait, did that say there is a 2.5 diesel Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nipper Posted November 18, 2006 Share Posted November 18, 2006 Wait wait wait, did that say there is a 2.5 diesel http://uk.cars.yahoo.com/car-reviews/car-and-driving/subaru-forester-range-1003544.html As far as turbocharged petrol Forester models are concerned (theres still no diesel), Subaru have dumped the 2.0 XT model but uprated its more recently introduced 2.5-litre XT counterpart, giving it an extra 19 PS, raising power to 230 PS and reducing the 0-60 mph time to 5.7 seconds for the manual. no such thing nipper Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
porcupine73 Posted November 18, 2006 Share Posted November 18, 2006 Is there any like federal regulations in the US or something about how much a vehicle can be rated to tow? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nipper Posted November 18, 2006 Share Posted November 18, 2006 Is there any like federal regulations in the US or something about how much a vehicle can be rated to tow? No there is not. There is just regulations on when a trailer needs brakes, and on which trailer hitch to use. Part of it may have to do with crash standards. US spec cars may have differnt dynamics in the rear, where the trailer hitch would go, not allowing for the bigger trailers. ALso gear ratios have a big part in it, along with tire ratings engine output etc etc etc nipper Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Dude Posted November 19, 2006 Author Share Posted November 19, 2006 No there is not. There is just regulations on when a trailer needs brakes, and on which trailer hitch to use. Part of it may have to do with crash standards. US spec cars may have differnt dynamics in the rear, where the trailer hitch would go, not allowing for the bigger trailers. ALso gear ratios have a big part in it, along with tire ratings engine output etc etc etc nipper US engines have a higher output. If anything, UK spec Subarus would have a higher final gear ratio for higher MPG. That would mean less towing capacity, not more. Tires could easy be ugraded by Subaru Of America in a "towing" package. No, it doesn't wash. It's more likely a marketing decision or a liablity concern than a real hardware difference. My Forester tows my 2,000 sailboat like a feather, the car has way more actual towing capacity. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soloracer34 Posted November 19, 2006 Share Posted November 19, 2006 I don't know if Subaru's are in the same boat but my Chevy Colorado I had with a 3.5L was only rated to tow 3,500lbs and I was told by a reputable source that they are physically capable of towing more but under a heavier load will not meet the current emissions standards. Often the EPA may be the cause of lower ratings not physics and safety. Just a thought... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jon38iowa Posted November 19, 2006 Share Posted November 19, 2006 I don't know if Subaru's are in the same boat but my Chevy Colorado I had with a 3.5L was only rated to tow 3,500lbs and I was told by a reputable source that they are physically capable of towing more but under a heavier load will not meet the current emissions standards. Often the EPA may be the cause of lower ratings not physics and safety. Just a thought... And the EPA may be the reason we don't have a Subaru diesel here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nipper Posted November 19, 2006 Share Posted November 19, 2006 And the EPA may be the reason we don't have a Subaru diesel here. No the reason is that subaru does not have deisel engine. Remeber they are a small car company and dont have the deep pockets for R and R of a new drivetrain. Just now they are getting into it because of their partnerhip with toyota. ALso Deisels are coming back since Refineries are now forced to make low sulfur diesel fuel. nipper Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nipper Posted November 19, 2006 Share Posted November 19, 2006 US engines have a higher output. If anything, UK spec Subarus would have a higher final gear ratio for higher MPG. That would mean less towing capacity, not more. Tires could easy be ugraded by Subaru Of America in a "towing" package. No, it doesn't wash. It's more likely a marketing decision or a liablity concern than a real hardware difference. My Forester tows my 2,000 sailboat like a feather, the car has way more actual towing capacity. Its never safe to make assumptions like this. US cars have different spring rates then european cars, and you wouldnt see that from comparing specs. Austrailia also has higher towing rates, but the subarus there have self leveling suspension, which makes me think that it is depdnet on the spring rates more then anything else nipper Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nipper Posted November 19, 2006 Share Posted November 19, 2006 Found this Eurpoean ratings tend to be over stated, also its illegal to tow more then the car weighs. Also in europe you are limited to 50mph-60mph when towing (and they are very strict). ALso to tow you need a license to tow, so therefor eurpoeans have more training on this, allowing for higher rates. Unlike here you can't just throw a trailer on a vehical and go. http://europe.airstream.com/airstreamer/faq.html 15. My car has a tow rating of 3000kg. Can I tow this much? The "tow rating" is a recommendation set by the vehicle manufacturer, which refers to the ability of the vehicle's power, cooling and transmission systems to handle load - typically what it can pull up a 1 in 12 gradient at a standing start. This is not necessarily what it is suited in reality to tow under a wide variety of conditions, not least speed. Real life towing conditions impose greater demands on the tow vehicle than this theoretical test. Hence, whilst some EU vehicles have tow ratings up to 3500KG, this does not mean caravans of this weight can be safely towed, thus tow ratings can be misleading. A caravan is a high sided object. When towed behind a car, it behaves aerodynamically in a different way from say a flat bed trailer carrying cargo. Hence recommendations for caravan towed weights are usually far more modest. http://www.volvoclub.org.uk/towing.shtml SO basically the numbers mean nothing, and probably work out the same to the US recomended weights. Seems that even the trailer design standards are self limiting also. nipper Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Setright Posted November 19, 2006 Share Posted November 19, 2006 Erm, maybe it's time for a European to get mixed into this discussion?? Yes, it's not legal to tow more than the kerb-weight of the car, IF you only have a normal license. If you've taken a "trailer license" you can tow the full 2000kg behind a 2.5XT - provided the trailer has brakes. In fact, the 2.0X is only allowed to tow 500kg without brakes. A 1470kg trailer must have brakes for a 2.0X to tow it legally. MAYBE that's the difference? Brakes or not? (Take note, that some countries also impose relative lenght and width restrictions. As Nipper has already put forth.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Dude Posted November 19, 2006 Author Share Posted November 19, 2006 Erm, maybe it's time for a European to get mixed into this discussion?? Yes, it's not legal to tow more than the kerb-weight of the car, IF you only have a normal license. If you've taken a "trailer license" you can tow the full 2000kg behind a 2.5XT - provided the trailer has brakes. In fact, the 2.0X is only allowed to tow 500kg without brakes. A 1470kg trailer must have brakes for a 2.0X to tow it legally. MAYBE that's the difference? Brakes or not? (Take note, that some countries also impose relative lenght and width restrictions. As Nipper has already put forth.) Thank you for your information on European towing regulations. Here, in the US, Subaru of America recommends an unbraked towing limit of 1000lbs (454 kg). In most of our fifty states, motorists would be free to exceed that recommendation if they wished to. Many states require that the towed vehicle have it's own brakes if the towed weight exceeds 3,000 lbs (1,363 kg). When I purchased a heavier trailer for my sailboat, I bought one with brakes. I still believe the much lower US towing limit is based on lawsuit liability alone. If a US Subaru driver has an accident when towing over 2200 lbs, SOA can say the driver had exceeded the published towing limit for the vehicle. That would eliminate, or at least greatly reduce, any exposure SOA might have in a lawsuit resulting from the accident. European gasoline (petrol) prices are very high. Naturally, Europeans want the highest possible towing limits from the most fuel effecient car. Subaru is not a particularly fuel effecient car. But Subaru has a much higher towing limit than other cars in Europe with similar MPG. This allows Subaru to occupy a niche in the very crowded, and fiercely competitive, European car market. Anyone fancy a Skoda? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. RX Posted November 19, 2006 Share Posted November 19, 2006 Let me see, how long did rest of the world have a WRX before the USA and Canada got one??? So what makes you think these vehicles are any different. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zyewdall Posted November 22, 2006 Share Posted November 22, 2006 no such thing nipper Not yet, but apparently for the 2007 year in UK? And they're expecting 50% of their sales to be diesels by 2010 in Europe. Also buying hybrid technology from Toyota. http://globalautosystems.com/index.php?option=content&task=view&id=345&Itemid=2 http://www.autoblog.com/2006/09/30/subarus-diesel-boxer/ http://globalautosystems.com/index.php?option=content&task=view&id=345&Itemid=2 I'd have to imagine that if they are introducing it in the 2007 model year, they'd already be marketing the heck out of it, and since no one even knows the exact design yet, I suspect it's actually going to be the 2008 or 2009 year -- just like the Ford Escape hybrid took about 3 years to actually get introduced compared to when they said it would be out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zyewdall Posted November 22, 2006 Share Posted November 22, 2006 ALso Deisels are coming back since Refineries are now forced to make low sulfur diesel fuel. nipper Yes, I noticed on my last road trip that about 80% of the diesel pumps are ULSD now. Which means that diesels can finally start using catalytic converters (or something equivalent). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nipper Posted November 22, 2006 Share Posted November 22, 2006 Not yet, but apparently for the 2007 year in UK? And they're expecting 50% of their sales to be diesels by 2010 in Europe. Also buying hybrid technology from Toyota. http://globalautosystems.com/index.php?option=content&task=view&id=345&Itemid=2 http://www.autoblog.com/2006/09/30/subarus-diesel-boxer/ http://globalautosystems.com/index.php?option=content&task=view&id=345&Itemid=2 I'd have to imagine that if they are introducing it in the 2007 model year, they'd already be marketing the heck out of it, and since no one even knows the exact design yet, I suspect it's actually going to be the 2008 or 2009 year -- just like the Ford Escape hybrid took about 3 years to actually get introduced compared to when they said it would be out. They are aiming for the 2007 model year, but i suspect it will be 2008 http://blogs.edmunds.com/.ee8fe18 http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/11997143/ http://www.whatcar.com/news-article.aspx?NA=221468 nipper Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ranger83 Posted November 22, 2006 Share Posted November 22, 2006 We used to tow racing sailboats regularly - as big as 30 feet and about 5,000 lbs on the trailer. They also have a lot of wind resistance. Claimed towing limits are all over the map. A lot of SUV's with high towing limits turn out not to be able to tow those limits in Overdrive - not practical. Their "real" towing limits are much lower. Ford puts out a towing brochure that lists towing limits by vehicle, weight - and frontal area. It's very well done. States are all over the map in terms of things like trailer brakes. The limits vary from 0 to none. Most are around 3,000 lbs. Most allow 8'6" but some mandate 8" - narrow for most boat trailers. See http://www.americanboating.org/towing.asp and others. I used a Ford Econoline E250 HD van to do most of our towing, which is just about perfect for the task. I wouldn't hesitate to tow 3,000 lbs with an H6 Outback if you had a trans cooler and trailer brakes, even on highways and hills. If you think Subaru is bad - some European manufacturers have no tow rating. I was on my way to the VW dealer to buy a Passat wagon a few years ago when I found out VWOA doesn't allow towing with it. Sale cancelled..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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