to much body roll

[iluvdrt]

I have way to much body roll in my wagon. It causes some nasty understeer. Aside from struts (which Ill get into in a minute), what is available (fits) my wagon to help. It is a 98 GT Limited BTW.

 

What Ive done so far is replace the struts . Fronts recieved new WRX struts and springs, the rear has recieved New STi struts and springs( not the inverted ones). could the differant combo cause this?

 

Have :

WRX front struts and springs

STi rear struts and springs

205/55/16 Yokohama V4S "V" rated tires

 

What I am planning:

17x8 JDM 17" GTB BBS wheels

225/45/ZR17 Michelin Pilot Exalto A/S tires "Z" rated

 

What I am curious about is:

Swaybars: are they available

End links: do they really help?

control arms: do they exist, and would an afetrmarket set help?

 

 

[nipper]

Your leaving out a major thing, as minor at it seems. the bushings. Replace the bushings with performance bushings and you will notice a big change. Also realize its a station wagon, not a wrx. the car is heavy and will have lean. But the polyurathane (i think thats it) bushings will help alot. The car has sway bars on it already, but you can go to a beefier one.

 

nipper

[Hodaka Rider]

Anybody else notice he's driving on the wrong side of the road?

 

Anti-sway bars. Also known as "roll bars". If you're not willing to go with stiffer springs, the bars will counter the body roll. You will lose some of the 'independantness' of the independant suspension, but they will definitely help keep your ride level. Try a bigger front bar, I think Perrin has one, among others.

[Virrdog]

Fronts recieved new WRX struts and springs, the rear has recieved New STi struts and springs( not the inverted ones). could the differant combo cause this?

Yes, yes, yes, yes!! I would recommend getting the same springs/struts all the way around. That can severly screw with any suspension tuning you try to do. What STi struts were not inverted?

 

And there are swaybars that will fit your car from Whiteline. I would recommend doing the front first. It helps the most with roll.

 

Endlinks make a BIG difference. The stock plastic ones (if you have the plastic c-links) stretch quite a bit. Anything that stretches before the swaybar can act will lessen its action.

 

And not over-driving can help prevent understeering across 2 lanes. Body roll has almost nothing to do with understeer. Learn how racing lines work, hitting your apexes and slow in - fast out. That will do a lot more good than some more suspension tuning when the nut behind the wheel needs adjustment.

[ericem]

To tell you the truth, i would think all four struts should be replaced at the same time, with the same ones. Also i would use STi springs as well, im sure there much more stiffer and work with the strut.

 

Also some people experienced the front sway bar snapping, but i guess it would be more serious. How quick were you going around that turn?

 

LOL, it looks like your about to flip!

[BruceyWV]

Psh, thats nothing.

Try driving my 3500 pound Outback at posted speed limits!

[idosubaru]

that's not an action shot, it just has two flat tires. hey wait...dont you have a headgasket to replace first!?!??!

 

i don't know jack about handling ....and i hate to say it since i'm always big on lots o' ground clearance, but won't lowering that wagon help, get some of that weight closer to the ground?

[nipper]

that's not an action shot, it just has two flat tires. hey wait...dont you have a headgasket to replace first!?!??!

 

i don't know jack about handling ....and i hate to say it since i'm always big on lots o' ground clearance, but won't lowering that wagon help, get some of that weight closer to the ground?

 

dont know much about headgaskets either

 

*giggle*

 

nipper

[idosubaru]

dont know much about headgaskets either

 

*giggle*

 

nipper

don't need too. buy cheap car. remove blown headgasket engine. install non-blown headgasket engine. sell car. he had posted questions about his blown headgasket in his car, so i was just linking the two threads together (in case you were wondering why i made that comment).

[nipper]

don't need too. buy cheap car. remove blown headgasket engine. install non-blown headgasket engine. sell car. he had posted questions about his blown headgasket in his car, so i was just linking the two threads together (in case you were wondering why i made that comment).

 

i wasnt wondering, i knw your one of those reactionary all is evil with 2.5L HG types

 

:-p

 

nipper

[iluvdrt]

don't need too. buy cheap car. remove blown headgasket engine. install non-blown headgasket engine. sell car. he had posted questions about his blown headgasket in his car, so i was just linking the two threads together (in case you were wondering why i made that comment).

 

 

Yeppers, the HG is still blown, I have that one under control though. I have 2 options, I am considering.

 

The springs that are on the struts are what came with them. Stock WRX front, and stock STi rear. The struts are just the KYB struts (even the STi), I think they are equivelant to KYB GS2's

 

I know my car has a sway, bar, I was thinking bigger, and I guess endlinks would help as well from reading.

 

I know how to drive, many a road rally's I have been in, the major thing is, is the auto trans it still has, it is not responcive enough for spirited driving. Which is why the 5 spd is going in.

 

I was in the curve at about 55 mph. It is a 25 mph curve.

 

 

I know it is a wagon and wont handle as good as a sedan, but I can make it better than what it is.

[jamal]

PDM-racing sells a lot of whiteline stuff. Also check out Racecomp engineering and kastle's korner.

 

So, anyway, springs and swaybars are the only things that actually reduce body roll (unless you could somehow make big changes to the suspension geometry).

 

First, get a whole set of something. Stock STi struts since like 1998 have been inverted, so if yours aren't inverted you don't have sti struts. GR2s are also not even close to equivalent to them.

 

WRX suspension isn't that great and the springs aren't that stiff. Also you should avoid springs for a non legacy wagon. They will cause rear end sag. You'd probably have the same problem with 04 sti take-offs.

 

So anyway, a good setup might be KYB AGX adjustable struts (find them on e-bay), Whiteline control springs, solid endlinks from kartboy or whiteline, and some swaybars.

 

Swaybars are the best way to limit roll and will do a lot to improve the handling. The big problem with Subarus is the way the camber changes under compression due to the suspension geometry. For about the first two inches of travel you gain a bit of negative camber (good). Then for the rest of the travel you lose negative camber (bad). Negative camber means the tire stays flat on the ground as you corner and grips better. For our cars it doesn't take much for the tires to roll over onto the outside edges, which doesn't get you much grip. So, you want to do all you can to limit roll, and get an alignment with the maximum amount of negative camber (the max in stock adjustment range won't hurt your tires).

 

The biggest front bar I have seen is the Whiteline BSF19X, which is 22mm. The biggest rear bar listed for your car is the BSR19XZ, which is an 18-22mm adjustable bar. However I don't see any reason why the BSR17XZ, which is a 20-24mm adjustable bar, won't fit.

 

For cost, you're looking at about $1400 with an alignment assuming you install this stuff yourself (it's pretty easy). AGXes ($400), Control springs ($260), 22mm swaybars ($400), and solid endlinks ($200) will completely change how the car feels and handles.

[Virrdog]

I know how to drive, many a road rally's I have been in, the major thing is, is the auto trans it still has, it is not responcive enough for spirited driving. Which is why the 5 spd is going in.

Road rally's make you an expert driver now-a-days? :confused:

 

And going into a curve at a certain speed doesn't really say a whole lot. You could have been doing 50 coming out of the curve on the correct line (auto or 5spd). And you would have been on your side of the road, which generally is a good thing.

[iluvdrt]

Road rally's make you an expert driver now-a-days? :confused:

 

And going into a curve at a certain speed doesn't really say a whole lot. You could have been doing 50 coming out of the curve on the correct line (auto or 5spd). And you would have been on your side of the road, which generally is a good thing.

 

I never said it did make make me an expert. Try not to get into an "E" driver skill match. If you dont know the answer to my questions than, at least try and be constructive in the thread instead of deconstructive.

 

I have an auto which makes it very hard to compression brake. The 4eat is a dog. You should be seeing the back half of that curve which means I am not sliding off of the road, I am finishing an apex. I just have that much body roll.

 

 

jamal, Thanks for the help as well as the advice. I will change my springs around and balance out the struts with a complete set. I only had $75 total in the 4 new ones I had, so no big loss.

[nipper]

I never said it did make make me an expert. Try not to get into an "E" driver skill match. If you dont know the answer to my questions than, at least try and be constructive in the thread instead of deconstructive.

 

I have an auto which makes it very hard to compression brake. The 4eat is a dog. You should be seeing the back half of that curve which means I am not sliding off of the road, I am finishing an apex. I just have that much body roll.

 

 

jamal, Thanks for the help as well as the advice. I will change my springs around and balance out the struts with a complete set. I only had $75 total in the 4 new ones I had, so no big loss.

 

Just shift it manually thats what i do

 

nipper

[Andyjo]

Ok, here's what you need to do... either get some massive rachet straps, and strap the unibody down to the a-arm.. make sure they're the big straps, or else stuff will not be happy... second option.. get some custom coilovers made for it... might also cost you $2000+

[Virrdog]

I never said it did make make me an expert. Try not to get into an "E" driver skill match. If you dont know the answer to my questions than, at least try and be constructive in the thread instead of deconstructive.

Did you miss my first post?? I don't remember saying anything about my driving skills, so how is that an e-match?

 

I know the answer to your question. I'm trying to tell you and you don't like all of it. Get all your struts/springs the same (and made for a wagon). Get some beefier swaybars and endlinks, you might need to get the heavy duty brackets for the rear sway so you don't snap the stock ones. Whiteline should have most everything you need from the springs to the sways. And learn to drive correctly and that will handle your tendency to understeer really bad... as I mentioned before body roll is not directly related to understeering.

 

Please point out where I am being deconstructive.

[Strakes]

I have an IPD rear sway bar. I love it. With the stock springs, the handling was pretty much neutral and the lean was gone. Since then I have put on H&R lowering springs and KYB GR2 struts. Had a great alignment shop work with me to keep the car handling neutral after all the suspension changes.

[jamal]

I mentioned before body roll is not directly related to understeering.

 

 

Actually it is. Thanks to the poor camber curve, it takes very little for the front tires to be forced onto the outside edges while cornering. Reducing roll has a significant effect on improving grip.

 

Adding a huge front bar will improve front end grip and can reduce understeer because the better contact patch overrides the added weight transfer.

[iluvdrt]

Virrdogas[/b]]Did you miss my first post?? I don't remember saying anything about my driving skills, so how is that an e-match?

Please point out where I am being deconstructive.

 

I am sorry, I thought you were insinuating I was a poor driver when you said " You could have been doing 50 coming out of the curve on the correct line (auto or 5spd)..." and " Road rally's make you an expert driver now-a-days? :confused: ".

 

The one that got me was, " And going into a curve at a certain speed doesn't really say a whole lot. You could have been doing 50 coming out of the curve on the correct line".

I drive my cars VERY hard..., My buddy has an EVO IX, That I regularly ride/drive in. While driving the EVO, I took that turn at almost 75mph, on snow tires, and it didnt budge. When I exited that turn in my Lego, I was doing 65, with the pedal floored. It wasnt sliding...much, but the body roll was scary.

 

Now I know you cannot make a Legacy handle better then an EVO. But when he and I are "spirited" driving on backroads, I would like to not over push her limits.

 

Virrdog[/b]]

I know the answer to your question. I'm trying to tell you and you don't like all of it. Get all your struts/springs the same (and made for a wagon). Get some beefier swaybars and endlinks, you might need to get the heavy duty brackets for the rear sway so you don't snap the stock ones. Whiteline should have most everything you need from the springs to the sways. And learn to drive correctly and that will handle your tendency to understeer really bad... as I mentioned before body roll is not directly related to understeering.

.

 

Very useful. Here is what I did.

 

I got front 05 STi struts and springs, and replaced my rear springs with the rear STi set I had. (the rears were the inverted real STi struts. A quick call to Subaru with a PN declared that.) So now I have all four struts STi and springs, with tops. It lowered the car about 2", and although I had to get a camber kit, it made a HUGE differance.

The car feels much more stable, and has much less body roll. I think that is the feel I was looking for.

 

I also think it looks very sporty lowered.

 

Thanks to eveyone, and sorry about the mixed up drama. It happens, especially on the internet( no emotions/body language to express tone of speech).

[ericem]

yay!!!! but you should not say a legacy can't handle like a EVO, im 200 percent sure it could! (snaps fingers) If you really want the car to be a EVO, get a STi sway bar, but measure it first, or just get a heavier sway bar like lets say, if yours is 18mm, then get a 20mm up front. And the rear, well you cant just get make them both 20mm well you could, but i guess it effects handling aspect a bit.

 

If you still want to make the car a EVO, get a strut bar front and rear, and get a thicker/stiffer front sway bar, and then see if it oversteers, then work with the rear if your not satified.

[skizix]

Sway bars are the best handling upgrade you can do for the $$$, IMO. Body roll goes down quite a lot, with only a minimal loss of passenger conformt. However, be aware that having a big burly rear bar, relative to the front, will result in oversteer when you start to break loose in a turn.

 

Most consumer cars are engineered with a bit of understeer, because it is safer, especially for non-expert drivers, if you start to loose it. Most drivers' instinct is to hit the brakes as soon as the car starts to break loose. That will safely bring an understeering car back under control, but it will only make matters worse if the car is set up with oversteer. To anyone who's played around with handling at the limit, it's normally dealable, but if you have a big imbalance, front to back, it can indeed be dangerous.

[jamal]

I got front 05 STi struts and springs,

 

They would have to be 04 or earlier. 05+ STi front struts don't fit any other Subaru.

 

Also lowering a car 2" is going to do a lot of harm to the handling, because of the camber curve issues I mentioned. By lowering the car that much, you've pretty much negated the benefits of the higher roll stiffness.

[iluvdrt]

They would have to be 04 or earlier. 05+ STi front struts don't fit any other Subaru.

 

Also lowering a car 2" is going to do a lot of harm to the handling, because of the camber curve issues I mentioned. By lowering the car that much, you've pretty much negated the benefits of the higher roll stiffness.

 

05' rear struts bolted right on it. I saw the car at the junkyard, door panel said 0904, which is early model STi. Fronts did with some minor mods to the brake line tab, and the tabs for the ABS wire.

 

 

Camber is not affected with a proper alignment. All I neded was a MAGNA 14mm camber bolt in the front, and a MAGNA 12mm camber bolt in the rears. Bingo, camber is spot on (Fronts:-0.5 degrees, rears: -1.2).

 

Lowering the car also lowers the center of gravity, and decreases the "roll over point" in which the body roll causes the tires to break their point of adhesion and causes a slide (roll over). If a suspension is designed to travel in spacific distance, than it isnt a big factor in how low the car is. Its when people buy lowering springs, and use them on stock struts, that suspension problems happen.

[jamal]

Right, 05 rear struts fit, it's the fronts that don't. The 05 has better hubs and bearings, and up front the knuckle is bigger so the struts are too big for other cars.

 

The actual amount of suspension travel (stock springs vs. lowering springs), will only effect when the struts hit the bump stops. With a car lowered 2", the negative camber will only decrease with compression. This is because of the geometry of the a-arm, ball joint, and strut. When the control arm is horizontal, it pushes the hub slightly farther away giving more negative camber. After that, things go the wrong way. It doesn't matter how the car is lowered.

 

-0.5 degrees of negative camber is not that great for handling. with an inch of compression it leaves you at about 0 deg, and on top of the body roll means you're cornering on the outside of the tread. You should really shoot for 2+ degrees if you want the car to handle well. Keeping the tread flat on a corner means you're using all of it's available grip. I went from -0.7 to -2 degrees and it made a drastic improvement in how the car handled. I also have -1.5 in the rear.

 

I have 04 STi suspension, so I also had some issues with camber. For the rears I bought aftermarket camber bolts and up front I drilled out the knuckles and milled the struts to use two sets of the big oem bolts. The ones in the bottom hole are positioned to max out negative camber and can't be rotated.

 

decreases the "roll over point" in which the body roll causes the tires to break their point of adhesion and causes a slide (roll over).

 

roll over point?

 

Do you mean roll center? Because it actually moves the roll center farther from the center of gravity which increases body roll.