Guest jclay Posted February 29, 2008 Share Posted February 29, 2008 Hi All, I was told by my local Merchants auto that my front rotors (97 Legacy 2.2) are scored and are in need of resurfacing...since I know these people work on commission, I don't totally trust them... However, since I bought the car used 3 years ago, I have no idea when it's last had new rotors, so it sounds feasable...but is there an easy way to tell or visually inpect the rotors myself? Given that new rotors are only $28 ea. at my local auto parts store, I'd rather just replace them myself...I can turn a wrench, but am wondering if there is anything out of the ordinary I need to be aware of? I'm thinking I should be able to remove the pads, soak the bolts holding the rotors with PB blaster, remove the old, and replace with the new (after cleaning them with brake cleaner...) Any other thoughts or advice would be greatly appreciatted! Thanks in advance! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
porcupine73 Posted February 29, 2008 Share Posted February 29, 2008 Replacing rotors is not overly difficult, especially if you are not reusing the old ones (then you can sledge the old ones off if needed). The biggest hassle I have found on my rusty salt belt soobs is getting the caliper bracket bolts out, especially if they haven't been removed in a couple years. Next hassle can be getting the old rotor off, BUT if you are lucky enough that the rotors you have on there have the two little threaded bolt holes, that makes it much easier to drive the rotors off the hub. Also yes, replacing (esp if the rotors are like you say $28 ea or so) is a much better idea than resurfacing. Resurfacing/turning removes rotor mass which means the rotors will get hotter than they did previously during the same stops. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mwatt Posted February 29, 2008 Share Posted February 29, 2008 Hi All, I was told by my local Merchants auto that my front rotors (97 Legacy 2.2) are scored and are in need of resurfacing...since I know these people work on commission, I don't totally trust them... However, since I bought the car used 3 years ago, I have no idea when it's last had new rotors, so it sounds feasable...but is there an easy way to tell or visually inpect the rotors myself? Given that new rotors are only $28 ea. at my local auto parts store, I'd rather just replace them myself...I can turn a wrench, but am wondering if there is anything out of the ordinary I need to be aware of? I'm thinking I should be able to remove the pads, soak the bolts holding the rotors with PB blaster, remove the old, and replace with the new (after cleaning them with brake cleaner...) Any other thoughts or advice would be greatly appreciatted! Thanks in advance! replacing a brake rotor requires removing the caliper bracket from the spindle (the spindle is basically the component at the bottom of each strut. It's what the wheel attaches to). It's really a pretty easy job; there are two bolts (I believe they're 14mm but someone else chime in if I'm wrong) that attach the caliper bracket to the spindle. The entire bracket, with the caliper still attached to it, can then be lifted upward and the rotor (sometimes) just slides off of the hub. There are no bolts holding the rotor to the hub, but there are small threaded holes in the rotor where you can insert a bolt which will help to force a rotor off of the hub, as they do tend to seize into position on the hub. By the way, you mention "Given that new rotors are only $28 ea. at my local auto parts store..." just remember the old addage "you get what you pay for". These aftermarket parts are not up to the quality standards of OEM components. Buyer beware..... I'm glad you're aware that these places like Merchant's, Midas, etc are all about SELLING service. To a certain extent, a little bit of scoring on brake rotors is normal. Did they comment on the condition of the brake pads? What I'm getting at here is: did worn out pads lead to this scoring or did the scoring occur from normal road dirt and brake pad particles that get caught between pads and rotors? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idosubaru Posted February 29, 2008 Share Posted February 29, 2008 yes you can check them yourself. if you have aluminum wheels, just look through and see the surface of them. if not you can turn the wheels to full lock (left or right) and look behind and feel them (be sure to let them cool down first). if it's smooth, fine. if it's slightly wavy in nature, that's fine too. if it's got chunks coming off and shreddings everywhere and rough - very bad. but you would probably have noises associated with that. i'm not sure if the newer stuff has these - but if yours has the two stupid freaking set-screws on the rotors, they can be very annoying. it's a very simple and easy job - but if those set screws are there and rusted in place they suck. i've had to drill most of them out. they aren't needed though, so i never reinstall them. if that's only older gen stuff, i'll delete this comment??? the last brakes i did were a a 97 impreza, you'd think i'd remember!?!?!? frankly - if you want to save the $60 and time don't replace them. they will perform just fine and wear your pads marginally faster. i personally replace mine and encourage people to but i also know people have budgets to work with. if that $60 could be used elsewhere and your brakes are performing fine then you have that option, it's not a safety or performance concern. as far as performance you'd probably gain more by replacing all your brake fluid than the rotors anyway since it's 10+ years old. i've had good luck buying cheap rotors from the parts store. if you're going to spend money - spend it on the pads - like ceramics or something. rotors definitely need replacing if you have any vibrations while braking. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bluestone Posted February 29, 2008 Share Posted February 29, 2008 I'd be willing to bet a handsome sum that those $28 rotors are of really poor quality. They just can't have been manufactured to high standards. They'd likely warp at the first hard stop. Hell, even Subaru's OEM rotors leave something to be desired imho. Brakes and tires are items that are just NOT worth skimping on....for the sake of safety. While you likely don't want to go the route that I've taken, and I can understand that, I recently put DBA slotted front rotors on my Subie, at $116 per rotor (along with ceramic brake pads and high quality brake fluid). And my Sube's braking is now superb! I'm not an aggressive driver but I do want strong, dependable braking. I care about my Subie and am willing to give it quality attention, even it takes somewhat more out of my wallet ( however I DO have my limits;) ). But that's just me. And I do understand and appreciate that many folks have budget issues. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bigbusa Posted February 29, 2008 Share Posted February 29, 2008 I bought replacement rotors at autozone for the rear of my 96 OBS. I put em on easy and they work great. You guys who crap on cheap replacement parts must be RICH. A $28 rotor coupled with new pads is going to last for a long long time. I think slotted/drilled rotors and ceramic pads on a suby (other than a wrx or sti that's often driven hard) is super overkill... especially for a non agressive driver Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aircraft engineer Posted February 29, 2008 Share Posted February 29, 2008 yeah... sure - poor quality... YOU HAVE ANY IDEA WHERE THEY ARE MADE? They ALL come from China. (Even Subaru outsources that kind of stuff and lots more to CHINA) CAST IRON IS CAST IRON and the ONLY things that would vary are the POSSIBILITY of run-out and the hub holes. Either it FITS or it DOESN'T so don't fall for the "more expensive is better" or "only the manufacturer knows how to make them right" BS You want to go buy OEM pads as well or would Raybestos ceramic pads pass your muster? Now while most of the equipment I work on is "American", I go to Joe's (local supplier) for rotors (used to anyway - haven't done brakes for a while) AND INSTALL THEM. I'd rather put on "new" rotors for $8 more than turning the old ones (cleaner, too). Necessarily, I trust them with my life and have no reservations about "quality" (Yeah, it's a place where I think there is no difference whatever and I've had no issues with any rotors - PADS, yes, differing quality levels both in terms of service life and stopping power so I buy mid to high range QUALITY but not rotors) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idosubaru Posted February 29, 2008 Share Posted February 29, 2008 it's likely this guy doesn't even need rotors. it's not beneficial to argue opinions. stating them is one thing but to think that opinion is applicable across all circumstances and people is not the case. and trying to scare people with "you will die" statements is not helpful either. the great thing about this community is that there's a huge statistical representation that covers an insane number of miles, vehicles, experiences and as quantitative information as you can get for this sort of thing. anecdotal opinions or even experiences are not very weighty - with that any car ever made is junk or any car ever made is the best. i have $15 youwilldieifyouusethembecausethey'retoocheap rotors on my XT6 and they work just fine. you get what you pay for is a moto that is well headed but there are exceptions - with that moto he would have paid the shop their high quotes to do the job. this community is the perfect environment to hash out those exceptions - but there will be people that disagree and there's no harm in that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eagleb Posted February 29, 2008 Share Posted February 29, 2008 it's likely this guy doesn't even need rotors. it's not beneficial to argue opinions. stating them is one thing but to think that opinion is applicable across all circumstances and people is not the case. and trying to scare people with "you will die" statements is not helpful either. the great thing about this community is that there's a huge statistical representation that covers an insane number of miles, vehicles, experiences and as quantitative information as you can get for this sort of thing. anecdotal opinions or even experiences are not very weighty - with that any car ever made is junk or any car ever made is the best. i have $15 youwilldieifyouusethembecausethey'retoocheap rotors on my XT6 and they work just fine. you get what you pay for is a moto that is well headed but there are exceptions - with that moto he would have paid the shop their high quotes to do the job. this community is the perfect environment to hash out those exceptions - but there will be people that disagree and there's no harm in that. Good conflict resolution skills! Have you ever thought about being a politician? At least try to stop the Hilary and Obama bickering, please. -back to your regularly scheduled thread... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chip Posted February 29, 2008 Share Posted February 29, 2008 I've always used the $28 rotors on my 98 O/B and I've had very good luck with them. The car has over 300,000 kms and each time I do the brakes,(which isn't that often), I buy new rotors instead of having the old ones turned. The first time I did the brakes I went to the Subaru dealer and they had 2 different types of rotors...the jobber ones for ~$75,(which were actually the same ones NAPA sells for $28), and OEM ones for $150+,(which aren't made by Subaru either). Not knowing any better, I paid $75 for the "$28 rotors".....(but only once). I buy the "premium" pads at Napa for ~$90 so a complete front brake job costs me less than $200....(and a few scraped knuckles). Come to think of.....the replacment rotors lasted way longer than the original rotors did from when I bought the car in 98. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OB99W Posted February 29, 2008 Share Posted February 29, 2008 I bought replacement rotors at autozone for the rear of my 96 OBS. I put em on easy and they work great. [...]The AutoZone Duralast rotors seem okay. About six months ago I said this:http://www.ultimatesubaru.org/forum/showpost.php?p=624688 My brother is still happy with the results. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Setright Posted February 29, 2008 Share Posted February 29, 2008 Erm....lots of interesting comments and views here. I have one too Discs should be made of steel!!! Iron with carbon makes steel. Plain iron, cast and machined would wear out very fast indeed. Carbon not only gives surface hardness, but also a more uniform matrix. Personally, I do think there is a difference in quality of discs. I do agree with AircraftEngineer that casting is casting, and then maybe I don't. The temperature of the molten steel, the temperature of the cast, the speed of cooling, and so on will affect the uniformity of the finished product. Not all foundries will cast with the same care. They won't use the same percentage of carbon either, and 0.5 and 1.0 percent make for very different qualities of steel.... Having said that, the PRICE is only a guide to finding the best quality for your personal application. "It is not always true that you get what you pay for, but unless you pay for it, you certainly will not get it." Leonard Jerome Setright Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aircraft engineer Posted February 29, 2008 Share Posted February 29, 2008 this says gray iron is usual for rotors http://www.eng-tips.com/viewthread.cfm?qid=113925&page=1 The SAE report a few lines down describes gray iron, too BTW - if you had 1% carbon, it would tend to be rather brittle. It gets "stronger" but very brittle. "Ordinary" steel is .1 % carbon (that's SAE 1010 - those last 2 numbers tell you what the carbon is by tenths of a percent carbon - so, SAE 1020 is .2 %) Cast iron is a lot easier to machine and the turnings come off as "granules" rather than long threads - like steel machines Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idosubaru Posted February 29, 2008 Share Posted February 29, 2008 AH! i'm back in one of my least favorite classes - materials engineering. my rotors are didactic steel ionically bonded to elastically strengthened titanium substrate that has been yield tested to 1.21 gigawatts, i stop instantly! whatever is discussed won't discount the millions of miles put on $20 rotors. XT6 rotors are expensive, there's a direct fit chevy application that works on them and i've seen those as cheap as $9.99. THEY WORK AWESOME! tons of people on the XT forums are using them. there's a select few that make claims about how unsafe it is to do that, how they must suck and we're risking people's lives, etc. chicken lil chicken lil... will someone promise to take over the subaruxt/forum as all of our members start dying from using these!? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tcspeer Posted March 1, 2008 Share Posted March 1, 2008 I love the Duralast rotors from Auto Zone, just dont buy the cheaper ones they sell for around 20.00 dollars. I also like the Wagner Quiet pads from O' Riley. I also will never pay to have another one turned, just buy the new ones. With my job the turned rotor is warped in just a few days. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1997reduxe Posted March 1, 2008 Share Posted March 1, 2008 i went through the whole brake thing on my legacy about six months back. my brakes were to the point of grinding, and there was really something wrong with the front left ones. i tried with my brother to do the job myself, but (as someone above said) i broke the bolt holding on the caliper, and that was as far as i got. (i think generally there's a lot more stress on the front brakes, so the frozen bolts, plus of course the 220000 miles on them...) (at the time--245 now) luckily, the caliper still held on really well, till i could get it to a shop. there is a good machine shop/garage in town, and they were able to get the bolt out etc. they also did the pass side, and broke the bolts for me in the back too and i replaced pads there then by myself. they turned all the rotors for me, and it is still amazing to me how well it runs even though these rotors looked very old & shot. but, they said they were still in spec to be salvaged. thus due to already using bad old rotors i used the cheap pads that i think oreilly sold, but for the front left the caliper was bad and the shop got me a warner caliper that was pre-loaded with pads. that's a nice option. i used the cheap pads for the right side. they said pads are pads, it didn't matter about mixing them side to side. this all is very against previous policy for me regarding these cars. i used to be of the mind set (and i was told i think by an ex-suby mechanic that "subaru cars like suby brake parts". over time i thought there was at least some validity to that, in that at least that i think that there are some materials used in some pads (or rotors) that may or not work well with each other. i only know that one time my ex took her legacy to pep boys to get a "brake job", and after a week or two it squealed so badly that i went with subaru brakes and rotors for a long time. if i were to get a whole new set for this car i might get them again. or maybe the warner rotors and more of the pre-loaded warner calipers. it's amazing how struts, tires, and good brakes effect the ride. replace them all and it's like a new car. just late night ruminating... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idosubaru Posted March 1, 2008 Share Posted March 1, 2008 "subaru cars like suby brake parts". nah, not at all. many of us have done dozens or hundreds of subaru brake jobs and have never used Subaru parts on the brakes. quality pads and changing fluid are huge, but Subaru parts are not needed at all for brakes. what is odd that your shop did that most never do is use different pads on different sides - that is very bizarre. shops almost always replace both sides at the same time. so they gave you a good deal by only replacing one caliper, nice shop. most would swear you have to have both calipers replaced and the same pads on both sides. stay away from cheap pads and make sure you have a good mechanic. they probably used some real junk pads is my guess. i've used the cheapest pads around dozens of times and never had any squeaking issues. and of course the point was already made that subaru is using rotors made by some other company...that makes rotors! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnceggleston Posted March 1, 2008 Share Posted March 1, 2008 stay away from cheap pads ........ i've used the cheapest pads around dozens of times and never had any squeaking issues. huh? i don't understand? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idosubaru Posted March 1, 2008 Share Posted March 1, 2008 huh? i don't understand? sorry - i was replying to his squeaking and suggest "he" stay away from cheap pads due to his squeaking issues, not because i have anything against them. sounds like he's attributing his squeaking to "non Subaru parts". that's not the case but if he's going to think that then maybe he should avoid pep boys and whatever brakes they use. and in the same breath - mention that i've used cheap pads plenty of times with no noise in the hopes he will understand that's not normal if the job is done right. i'm kind of replying to two things, facts and feeling because in the end "perception is reality". i have never had any problem with the el-cheapo's on subarus. i don't use them any more for myself because i think other pads offer better braking. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edrach Posted March 1, 2008 Share Posted March 1, 2008 Hi All, I was told by my local Merchants auto that my front rotors (97 Legacy 2.2) are scored and are in need of resurfacing...since I know these people work on commission, I don't totally trust them... However, since I bought the car used 3 years ago, I have no idea when it's last had new rotors, so it sounds feasable...but is there an easy way to tell or visually inpect the rotors myself? Given that new rotors are only $28 ea. at my local auto parts store, I'd rather just replace them myself...I can turn a wrench, but am wondering if there is anything out of the ordinary I need to be aware of? I'm thinking I should be able to remove the pads, soak the bolts holding the rotors with PB blaster, remove the old, and replace with the new (after cleaning them with brake cleaner...) Any other thoughts or advice would be greatly appreciatted! Thanks in advance! Here's a case of taking a look. With no attention to the brakes in three years (45K miles????) you likely need pads. But don't buy anything without looking for yourself. Jack up the front wheels, remove the wheels, and inspect the brake pads and rotor. With less than 1/8th inch of pad left it would be a good time to replace them. If the rotor surface is still without significant gouges, you might not have to replace the rotors; but with new pads, adding another 15 minutes and $28 per side to the job will insure that you'll not have to do the job again for at least another three years. There's sufficient info in previous posts about cost/quality issues. I'm partial to OEM on brake parts, but that's just me. Good quality NAPA pads and rotors would work also unless you're a most aggressive driver (but if you've gone three years without thinking about it, you probably don't need to consider the most expensive options). Turning rotors is $15 to $20 per side, so another $8 for new is cheap compared to the slight loss of braking power for turned rotors. I'd go with new since there will be much less down time if you're doing the work yourself. So grab your tools and take a look and decide. You've got all the information you need. Good luck. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnceggleston Posted March 1, 2008 Share Posted March 1, 2008 i have never had any problem with the el-cheapo's on subarus. i don't use them any more for myself because i think other pads offer better braking. since i'm a autozone / advanceauto kind of a guy, what brand or price level would you suggest. i've been buying the cheapest available for all my cars for years and i only have 2 complaints: 1. they seem to wear out fast, seems like i'm always doing them, but with 4 vehicles it may not be the actual pads as much as the number of cars. 2. lots of brake dust on my alloys. any suggestions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idosubaru Posted March 1, 2008 Share Posted March 1, 2008 since i'm a autozone / advanceauto kind of a guy, what brand or price level would you suggest. i used to buy from advanced - which meant wearever silvers and golds. they worked fine. i think my comments would have been much like yours - wear fast and tons of dust (seem to go hand in hand!). some wearevers used to have a life time warranty - there's an option if you're blowing through them often. i'm a ceramic fan now, they noticeably improve braking. and no/less nasty dust! haven't bought into any particular brand but NAPA has been my goto place for ceramics so far. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bigbusa Posted March 1, 2008 Share Posted March 1, 2008 it's amazing how struts, tires, and good brakes effect the ride. replace them all and it's like a new car. No doubt! All that new stuff can make a car with 180k miles freel like it's only got 30k miles. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bluestone Posted March 1, 2008 Share Posted March 1, 2008 When my Sube's OEM pads came off at 30k miles, I found the front one's streaked with hairline cracks and showing evidence of crumbling. On one pad, there was a small space where a little chunk of pad material had fallen out. On the rotor surface opposite that space, there was a pronounced groove; the bit of pad material that had come loose had obviously gotten lodged between the pad and the rotor surface and scored it fairly deeply. I'd say those OEM pad were not of the best quality. The PBR/Axxis Ultimate pads (ceramic), $42 per set, that I replaced the OEMs with made a very noticeable improvement in braking performance. And when I replaced the front rotors with the DBA slotted ones a couple of years later I found the PBR/Axxis pads totally free of cracks and crumbling. While there was still a good amount of pad material left, I replaced them with a fresh set of Ultimates anyway so they would bed in perfectly with the new rotors. Dunno if it was really necessary but I felt better doing it. Regarding the statement, earlier, that ALL brake rotors are made in China; that's just not true. DBA rotors are made in Australia. And DBA designs and manufactures only brake rotors and nothing else. And I'd wager that other higher end rotors are still made in Europe. In heavy rain, my Sube's new slotted front rotors made a big difference; when pulling down from speed on the freeway, the brakes responded instantly, unlike with the OEM rotors which lagged 'till the rotor surfaces were cleared of water. The slots make a big difference here. When I did some summer, hot weather mountain driving with my Sube carrying three passengers and baggage when it still had the original rotors and pads, repeated braking caused progressively worsening fade and vibration; it did get a bit unsettling. This summer I'll be doing more mountain driving with a loaded car and I'd expect to experience FAR better braking performance under those conditions. I recently drove fairly fast through some winding roads in the hills for a good 50 miles with a couple of friends as passengers, intentionally putting my Sube's new brakes to the test and the brakes were always right there for me, even after using them repeadedly....with no noticeable degradation in their performance. Anyway, I still say that all rotors are not created equal. If the "el cheapo" ones made in China work for you, then fine! If you're happy, I'm happy. Enjoy! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wirelessenabled Posted March 2, 2008 Share Posted March 2, 2008 ..... Hell, even Subaru's OEM rotors leave something to be desired imho....... My '00 OBW is at 119K miles with original brake parts still with about 40% left. OEM parts work for me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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