SubiPilot Posted August 3, 2009 Author Share Posted August 3, 2009 exactly..thats why i mentioned T belt. And this thread is making my head hurt. you could have a igniter bad, a coil bad, but i SERIOUsLY DOUBT the engine has something wrong with it. These will run like poo with a forgotten vacuum line. If I was near you I am sure i can do a better job than who has been trying to get your car going. This just does make my head spin.... Yea you mentioned the timing belt, but this has nothing to do with my mechanic, it comes installed with the long block from CCR. Why is it you seriously doubt this motor has problems? The fact of the matter is this motor had problems before leaving CCR and was rebuilt a second time before it was shipped. The problem was leakage. This was posted previously perhaps you missed this bit of info? I also put an additional $800 worth of new components into this vehicle when CCR#1 was installed. If these things you off-handedly mention were the culprit I'd have to think that they would have been a problem with CCR#1 as well... which they weren't. I run 3 Legacy wagons with EJ22 motors and my mechanic has kept me on the road for the past 3 years. I average about 50k miles per year per vehicle. I seriously doubt you could do a better job than he has done. Subi 2 has 292k miles on it and runs like a champ so I know the reliability and longevity of these motors very well, and trust my mechanic knows his stuff. As I mentioned before my mechanic is a Subaru Factory Trained Technician with 25 years experience, most of them working for a Subaru dealer. What are your credentials exactly? This post is making your head spin? At least you have the option of ignoring this thread. Me... I've got to find a solution and get Subi 3 working again! Mal Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pontiac6KSTEAWD Posted August 3, 2009 Share Posted August 3, 2009 I have this sneaky suspicion that CCR will bail on this one... I think I would be at a point of telling CCR to take the motor back, get your money back, and find a used motor. But thats just me... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idosubaru Posted August 3, 2009 Share Posted August 3, 2009 Let them work it out, the commentary isn't helping. Considering the scope of this ordeal both parties have been extremely patient and flexible. Poking at his mechanic hardly seems beneficial, nor does being the arm chair business expert fanning the flames about CCR's next move. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SubiPilot Posted August 5, 2009 Author Share Posted August 5, 2009 UPDATE Garage #2 Diagnostic Results: Compression Test (cold) #1 Cylinder 130 lbs #3 Cylinder 130 lbs #2 Cylinder 150 lbs #4 Cylinder 150 lbs No vacuum leaks found. Suspect valves may be tight or valve seat dropping. Timing Belt looks OK. Waiting to hear back from CCR for the next step. I got some interesting info chatting with the owner of Garage #2... he said he recently replaced a 2.5 motor he got directly from Subaru. He said it took him 3 tries before getting a good one. Perhaps the root of the problem lies with Subaru? Mal Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nipper Posted August 5, 2009 Share Posted August 5, 2009 Blu's engine is a Subaru hybrid block. It used the short block from subaru (which is rebuilt by Cummins Diesel) and it ran and still runs fine. A subaru dealer rebuilt it for me out in CA when Blu threw a rod. Thise numbers are low period. THey should be in the 180-190 area. i cant diagnose it from here, but i dont know wtf is going on. A wet test shold have been performed also to see how the rings are. I have seen failed rebuilds, but not out of the box. Out of the box (or just assembled) I have seen cam timing off, improper HG installation, bad valves (which i will rule out here). Now something that can occure, which i have never seen from my friends or me (especially since i am paranoid about start up) is the failure to prime the lubricating system or to be generous with the lube on assembly. One other thing, which is a huge rooky mistake is a failure to offset the piston ring gaps. If those are all lined up, it can cause poor compression. The odds of that happening accidently is astronomical, the odds of i t happening on one cylinder are slim. I still wonder about cam timing, as those numbers are just too "neat" to be anything else. nipper Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bheinen74 Posted August 5, 2009 Share Posted August 5, 2009 the numbers of 150 150 130 130 make me say the timing is off, and the test guage reads a little low, maybe the accuracy of the comp guage tester is at question as well. . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nipper Posted August 5, 2009 Share Posted August 5, 2009 the numbers of 150 150 130 130 make me say the timing is off, and the test guage reads a little low, maybe the accuracy of the comp guage tester is at question as well. . And sometimes cam timing jumps in shipping. Its rare for it to happen on a crate engine, but it does happen. nipper Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SubiPilot Posted August 10, 2009 Author Share Posted August 10, 2009 (edited) It seems to me that this endless grief could easily be avoided if CCR bench tested their motors. If CCR motors were bench tested they could send a report showing the performance of the motor. Then it would be very clear when an external source was the cause of the problem. However, CCR DOES NOT BENCH TEST their motors. The first time the motor is actually run is after it has been installed. This makes if very easy for CCR to point the finger at the installer or an external source when they have no proof that the motor was good in the first place. The next step is waiting for CCR to contact me tomorrow after speaking with both mechanics...more BS. Mal Edited August 10, 2009 by SubiPilot Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Dude Posted August 11, 2009 Share Posted August 11, 2009 I sse that your original post was on 3.27.2009. You're working on five months and this situation still has not been resolved? I think if my Subaru ever needs a replacement engine I might just set it on fire and collect the insurance money. Just kidding It might be easier, though. Good luck. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hankosolder2 Posted August 11, 2009 Share Posted August 11, 2009 I wonder if the engine might have had an incorrect cam sprocket installed on it (from a different model engine) so the timing marks appear to line up correctly but the valve timing is whacked out. A rogue camshaft which is machined wrong would be another (remote) possibility. I suppose yet another possibility would be a timing belt with incorrect markings on it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Log1call Posted August 11, 2009 Share Posted August 11, 2009 A leak-down test should reveal where the compression is going, assuming it is going anywhere... you can hear the air leaking. oil down the bores between compression tests will show if it's rings too. There are other things that can cause low compression though, like blocked exhausts, but then the performance wouldn't come right with revs. Are you really certain that this second motor is a whole new motor? Could they have stripped the first one and put new rings in, on pistons that were on the rods the wrong way? It's a long shot but there is something screwy about all this. Nobody has this much trouble and recheckes things properly and not find the problem. Sorry not to be any help but I really have to suspect the rebuilds aren't any good and now they have given up getting to the bottom of it. It might be time to get another rebuilder to strip the motor and check everything. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SubiPilot Posted August 16, 2009 Author Share Posted August 16, 2009 I sse that your original post was on 3.27.2009. You're working on five months and this situation still has not been resolved? I think if my Subaru ever needs a replacement engine I might just set it on fire and collect the insurance money. Just kidding It might be easier, though. Good luck. I hear ya... and here I thought I was doing the smart thing getting a remanufactured motor over a used one. Definitely not worth the amount of grief I've experienced and still no end in sight. My mechanics have actually had better luck ordering used motors from Japan... only took 1 bad motor before getting a good one. Mal Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SubiPilot Posted August 16, 2009 Author Share Posted August 16, 2009 UPDATE.... I still have not heard from Terry or Rick as I was told... but I did call CCR and spoke with Emily (Rick's wife/office manager) and she assured me that Rick has decided to replace CCR#2 ... when is still not clear. My feeling is CCR would rather spend time and money (yours and theirs) trying to prove their bad motor is good than ensuring you receive a good motor in the first place. I'm still hoping for a GOOD motor but after 2 strikes my hopes and patience are fading. Mal Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Subaru_dude Posted August 16, 2009 Share Posted August 16, 2009 UPDATE.... I still have not heard from Terry or Rick as I was told... but I did call CCR and spoke with Emily (Rick's wife/office manager) and she assured me that Rick has decided to replace CCR#2 ... when is still not clear. My feeling is CCR would rather spend time and money (yours and theirs) trying to prove their bad motor is good than ensuring you receive a good motor in the first place. I'm still hoping for a GOOD motor but after 2 strikes my hopes and patience are fading. Mal I think you should DEMAND that it be bench tested before being sent to you. Then you and they will know for sure it's good or bad before they ship it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Dude Posted August 16, 2009 Share Posted August 16, 2009 (edited) I think you should DEMAND that it be bench tested before being sent to you. Then you and they will know for sure it's good or bad before they ship it. If you're a "made" member of an organized crime family you might be in position to issue a demand and have a reasonable expectation of compliance. Most of us are not that lucky. Things get really dicey when the supplier and customer are not in the same state. The easy, and cheap, option of small claims court may not be available or practical. An interstate lawsuit might cost as much, or even more, than the seller could expect in recovery. In many cases, as a practical matter, once you send your money out of state you're pretty much at the mercy of the seller. In a transaction such as this the buyer is depending almost solely on the established reputation of the seller for providing a quality product and fair dealing. Edited August 16, 2009 by The Dude Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hankosolder2 Posted August 16, 2009 Share Posted August 16, 2009 Have you proposed any other options to CCR? Such as you return engine #2, and they refund your money? You could then go with a used engine. At this point, perhaps both of you would prefer to just cut your losses. If not, I would certainly hope that they would go all out to insure engine #3 is dead-on. It can't be good for their business to have these unresolved issues aired on USMB. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SubiPilot Posted August 16, 2009 Author Share Posted August 16, 2009 Have you proposed any other options to CCR? Such as you return engine #2, and they refund your money? You could then go with a used engine. At this point, perhaps both of you would prefer to just cut your losses. If not, I would certainly hope that they would go all out to insure engine #3 is dead-on. It can't be good for their business to have these unresolved issues aired on USMB. I'm with you Hank on point #2... I would have to think that CCR can't afford a 3rd mistake and frankly I can't either. It stands to reason that CCR would do their very best to ensure CCR#3 is spot on. I've been told that Rick will be supervising the build himself. As to point #1, CCR states in their warranty that they will repair or replace. They don't refund. They have offered me a complete new warranty with the new motor (this isn't standard apparently). Now I just need the good motor. Mal Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Dude Posted August 28, 2009 Share Posted August 28, 2009 It's been two weeks. Do you have the new motor? I hope that the third time is the charm . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SubiPilot Posted August 28, 2009 Author Share Posted August 28, 2009 (edited) OK ... UPDATE CCR# 3 is supposedly on it's way after speaking with Terry on Thursday. He had called to see if it were OK to send it to Colonial Subaru which the 2nd opinion garage had recommended. This is the dealership I caught trying to rip me off for headgaskets back in 2005 when all I needed was a new radiator. This is the thread if anyone wants to revisit. http://www.ultimatesubaru.org/forum/showthread.php?t=51975&highlight=SubiPilot Why the 2nd garage recommended Colonial instead of offering to do it themselves is beyond me, but I definitely feel more comfortable with my regular mechanic. Not only do I feel he is more trustworthy, his shop rates are also $10 and $15 p/hr cheaper than the 2nd garage or Colonial. His diagnoses have also been correct. CCR#3 was 'bench tested' to some extent, at least as fully as CCR was able to test it. Leak Down #1 (10) #3 (20) #2 (15) #4 (10) Compression test: #1 (160) #3 (160) #2 (160) #4 (160) At least this is what the email stated... assuming it's accurate. I am really hoping CCR#3 is right, I've just about run out of patience. I still haven't received tracking information... not sure if it actually shipped today or not. Mal Edited August 28, 2009 by SubiPilot Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bigbusa Posted September 7, 2009 Share Posted September 7, 2009 (edited) 160 on all cylinders... someone in a post above mentioned the numbers should be nearer to 180-190 on a rebuilt engine. Is that correct? If it is, I wouldn't accept an engine that has numbers of 160. You have been waaaay more patient than I would have been. I probably would have have the charges reversed on my credit card after the 1st engine was found to be bad. And positively reversed the charges after the 2nd engine was bad. I'm sure that your credit card company would side with you given the situation. The length of time that's passed would normally be an issue but since the circumstances are unique, the time shouldn't matter to the CC company. If I were in your shoes, I wouldn't accept another engine from CCR. Call your CC customer service number on the back of the card and see if they can help you out of this nightmare. If you don't or can't do a CC chargeback... have the shop check the compression on engine #3 BEFORE installing it. That way, if it's way off you can just send it back without the install and uninstall process later. Edited September 7, 2009 by Bigbusa Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
STI_Wolf Posted September 8, 2009 Share Posted September 8, 2009 160 on all cylinders... someone in a post above mentioned the numbers should be nearer to 180-190 on a rebuilt engine. Is that correct? If it is, I wouldn't accept an engine that has numbers of 160. Well, that's before the break-in. It (should) jump up to 180 after its been driven. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Dude Posted September 9, 2009 Share Posted September 9, 2009 160 on all cylinders... someone in a post above mentioned the numbers should be nearer to 180-190 on a rebuilt engine. Is that correct? If it is, I wouldn't accept an engine that has numbers of 160. You have been waaaay more patient than I would have been. I probably would have have the charges reversed on my credit card after the 1st engine was found to be bad. And positively reversed the charges after the 2nd engine was bad. I'm sure that your credit card company would side with you given the situation. The length of time that's passed would normally be an issue but since the circumstances are unique, the time shouldn't matter to the CC company. If I were in your shoes, I wouldn't accept another engine from CCR. Call your CC customer service number on the back of the card and see if they can help you out of this nightmare. If you don't or can't do a CC chargeback... have the shop check the compression on engine #3 BEFORE installing it. That way, if it's way off you can just send it back without the install and uninstall process later. You have only 60 days to file a merchant grievance with a credit card provider. Don't expect any time extentions. Plus, in the purchase agreement the buyer has waived his right to a refund. The rebuilder is required to replace a defective rebuilt engine, that is all. I had a horrible experience with a rebuilt engine a few years ago. Fortunately, I bought in state, and I bought the the rebuilt engine through the installer. I ended sueing the installer over the defective rebuilt engine. It would have been very difficult, if not impossible, for me to have sued an out of state rebuilder. Also, in SC if anyone other than the rebuilder installs the engine the warranty is automatically voided. Here's what I learned from my experience: 1. Think long and hard before opting for a rebuilt engine 2. Buy from an instate rebuilder and installer so that you have easy access to small claims court. 3. Buy the rebuilt engine through the installer. That way the installer is legally responsible for the whole deal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nipper Posted September 9, 2009 Share Posted September 9, 2009 You have only 60 days to file a merchant grievance with a credit card provider. Don't expect any time extentions. Plus, in the purchase agreement the buyer has waived his right to a refund. The rebuilder is required to replace a defective rebuilt engine, that is all. I had a horrible experience with a rebuilt engine a few years ago. Fortunately, I bought in state, and I bought the the rebuilt engine through the installer. I ended sueing the installer over the defective rebuilt engine. It would have been very difficult, if not impossible, for me to have sued an out of state rebuilder. Also, in SC if anyone other than the rebuilder installs the engine the warranty is automatically voided. Here's what I learned from my experience: 1. Think long and hard before opting for a rebuilt engine 2. Buy from an instate rebuilder and installer so that you have easy access to small claims court. 3. Buy the rebuilt engine through the installer. That way the installer is legally responsible for the whole deal. I had mine rebuilt by subaru. I paid more, but after watching all this, i feel i did the right thing. nipper Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hankosolder2 Posted September 11, 2009 Share Posted September 11, 2009 So- what happened with engine #3? Is it in? How does it run? Nathan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Dude Posted October 3, 2009 Share Posted October 3, 2009 So, what happened with engine #3? Don't leave us hanging. This saga deserves an ending. Thanks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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