dangordon0128 Posted September 27, 2011 Share Posted September 27, 2011 Long time lurker, I typically find my answers throguh serached but this one is a bit more complicated. Bought a 95 legacy wagon 2.2 awd auto and after about 200mi the crank bolt fell out. Yeah, fell out. I had it torqued back on at local mech but it fell out again whil a friend was driving. He took it to his guy (trusted) and he reports that the bolt hole in the crank is stripped and even if he replaced the key and the balancer that the damage to the crank has totaled the car essentially. My first though is to swap it with another 2.2 and just move on. Will any 94-99 auto 2.2 swap in? Thoughts or advice? I love my subarus and I just dumps a new half axle and rear bearings (the double ones too) and would love to get it running again, but not while being an rump roast. If I have to cut my losses, I will. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeneralDisorder Posted September 27, 2011 Share Posted September 27, 2011 The crank bolt's only job is to apply enough pressure to the balancer and timing belt sprocket to keep them from moving. I would heli-coil the crank nose, clean up the damaged keyway and put it back together. I've worked on two engines with damaged keyway's and in both cases I was able to clean the keyway, fit a new key, and install the crank pulley's and bolt - in these two cases I used blue loctite as an added safegaurd (I don't normally use anything) and neither has had a single problem since. I don't see a reason to not heli-coil the crank nose. This is a no-brainer repair and isn't going to "total" the car. You'll probably be out $50 to $80 for the large heli-coil that will be needed. Not at all a "total" situation. That's just silly. GD Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bheinen74 Posted September 27, 2011 Share Posted September 27, 2011 I was thinking the helicoil too, or else even cheaper, somewhat fill in the stripped threads with weld, then re-tap the threads. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeneralDisorder Posted September 27, 2011 Share Posted September 27, 2011 (edited) I would be inspecting things closely - it may be that the bolt is damaged and should be replaced also. I would drill it, stack two heli-coil's, and be on my way down the road. This is nothing special for a *real* mechanic. We do this kind of thing every day. Heck just a week or two back I had to do both front calipers from an '06 STi - they are $700 (each) Brembo 4-pot's and I had to drill out a completely seized 10mm x 1.5 caliper mount bolt, and heli-coil all four holes. Want to talk about a pucker factor 9 moment? Try drilling a hardened steel bolt out of a $700 aluminium caliper. . But it came out just fine. Heli-coil's are just another tool. A real mechanic is a master of tools. Welding wouldn't work. The weld arc will produce a harder material and the tap will not go in straight. That and welding inside a deep, blind hole..... unpossible! GD Edited September 27, 2011 by GeneralDisorder Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dangordon0128 Posted September 27, 2011 Author Share Posted September 27, 2011 This dude I talked to (no access to the car yet) cited "damage and rounding to the crank itself" as the biggest issue and he wouldn't even touch it. Possibly because he is not used to older cars being fixed despite inherent, not acutal value. My buddy whos is borrowing it lives in Northern NJ near NYC and the value of a hard working used car is lost. I am pretty handy and have done several jobs to my Subaru fleet (can 2 be a fleet?). While I am not a *real* mechanic myself and have never used a heli coil, from the responses I suspect that after a video or two on how to use them, I could take care of this myself? I was also able to find twp threads that have a similar issue that I am reviewing now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idosubaru Posted September 28, 2011 Share Posted September 28, 2011 definitely repair, this is not a big deal. out of round is completely meaningless for a thread repair kit for a variety of factors - one being you drill the hole first - that's going to get rid of the out of round, even if it didn't a little bit won't prevent the thread repair kits from working at all - done it a ton of times. you'll want to remove the radiator and probably the a/c condensor too in front of the rad for room, particullary if it's your first time working with a helicoil. get the thinnest right angle drill you can get. tools stores rent them or you can get a right angle adapter for your drill. i place my drill bits in a secure fixture then wail on them as hard as i can with a huge hammer - VERY fast swing is what you want - it'll shear the drill bit in half making it shorter to use in confined areas. where goggles and have nothing valuable close at hand - the broken part will fly across the garage. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idosubaru Posted September 28, 2011 Share Posted September 28, 2011 if you're still thinking about enngine swaps: 99 EJ22 won't work, phase II with tons of differennces. 96-98 EJ22 you''d also need a ypipe as the exahust ports are different, but the ypipe does bolt right up to the car so it's easy if you just get the pipe. if yours is an automatic - then you'll need to make sure any engine you get has an EGR valve. in 95 only the automatics have EGR and manuals do not. after that it's more random - some do and some don't with no rhyme or reason - at least in my area there's no rhyme/reason. for a 95 manual it won't have EGR. it'll run fine if you put a nonEGR into an EGR or the other way around but you'll have a check engine light you can't get rid of (so far i've swapped intake manifold, wiring, and ECU and somehow still have the check engine light for it)? noone else has figured it out either. 90-94 is different than 95 but you should be able to bolt your 95 intake manifold to it...with some tips from others more familiar with those early models. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WoodsWagon Posted September 28, 2011 Share Posted September 28, 2011 This dude I talked to (no access to the car yet) cited "damage and rounding to the crank itself" as the biggest issue and he wouldn't even touch it. The snout of the crank gets the crap beaten out of it when the pulley and sprocket wobble back and forth on it. It does round over, score up, and trash the end of the crank. But that part isn't important. It doesn't carry much load, and the keyway is only to line the sprocket up until the bolt clamps it to the shoulder of the crank. The important surfaces are the shoulder of the crank snout just outside of the front main seal, the two surfaces of the timing belt sprocket, the two surfaces of the crank pulley, and the face of the crank bolt washer. These surfaces are what get clamped together by the bolt when it is tight, and it's the static friction of those clamped surfaces that transmits the power to turn the belts. If you can clean up the snout of the crank with a file, get a new key to fit in the keyway and JB it in it's original position, and put a fresh crank sprocket, pulley, and bolt on, it should be good to go. Make sure the crank threads are actually stripped, it's really rare. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lmdew Posted September 28, 2011 Share Posted September 28, 2011 I have a spare Crank shaft gear and Balancer if you need them. Larry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeneralDisorder Posted September 28, 2011 Share Posted September 28, 2011 I'm sure you could accomplish the job. The biggest hurdle for someone that's not outfitted like a real mechanic is going to be getting the crank nose drilled since it's a tight fit between the AC condensor and the front of the engine. It would be a simple matter to pull the engine in a real shop but you may not have the tools for that. A right angle drill and some short drill bits can likely accomplish the task as well. Or removal of the condensor - especially if the AC has no charge or is otherwise uneeded/unwanted. GD Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bheinen74 Posted September 28, 2011 Share Posted September 28, 2011 How about just retap it a thread size or two sizes larger than stock, source a new bolt to fit new thread, and enlarge the pulley hole to accept lager bolt. I know the crank is hardened/forged, but a good tap set should do the trick with some cutting oil and time. No need to remove engine, or condensor etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeneralDisorder Posted September 28, 2011 Share Posted September 28, 2011 That's not the right way to do it - yeah you could enlarge the threads but then you have bastardized the whole thing and can't use interchangeable components..... better to just invest in a heli-coil and do it the right way. But yes - if the world ended tomorrow and I couldn't get a heli-coil of the size needed.... that's when you consider tapping oversized and using some SAE bolt off your tractor. The crankshaft is likely case-hardened and will probably drill very nicely down the interior..... the crank nose itself is not very hard at all. Quite soft in fact. GD Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ocei77 Posted September 28, 2011 Share Posted September 28, 2011 Should not need a right angle drill. Once the radiator is out, just remove grill and you have a straight shot to the crank. O. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davebugs Posted September 28, 2011 Share Posted September 28, 2011 Should not need a right angle drill.Once the radiator is out, just remove grill and you have a straight shot to the crank. O. I believe there is still a painted part of front end in your way right down the middle that is welded in. I'd actually be impressed if the threads are shot. I've fixed several where the last timing belt the crank bolt wasn't tightened enough. I also believe I saw a procedure here where someone drilled through the harmonic balancer and crank shaft end and put a rollpin in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fairtax4me Posted September 28, 2011 Share Posted September 28, 2011 Should not need a right angle drill.Once the radiator is out, just remove grill and you have a straight shot to the crank. O. Except for that AC condenser in the way... I would make absolutely sure the crank is stripped out before going to great lengths on repairs. I've seen it happen, but I would think the bolt is more likely to strip than the crank is. Check the bolt carefully. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnceggleston Posted September 28, 2011 Share Posted September 28, 2011 I'd actually be impressed if the threads are shot. the typical failure is for the bolt to loosen and the crank sprocket to move, hammering on the key way, the key and the sprocket. the fix is to replace the key and the sprocket (and the harmonic balancer) and the bolt and to put it back together and torque it correctly. lots of folks have done this with good success. i have never heard of the crank bolt threads being bad. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davebugs Posted September 28, 2011 Share Posted September 28, 2011 the typical failure is for the bolt to loosen and the crank sprocket to move, hammering on the key way, the key and the sprocket. the fix is to replace the key and the sprocket (and the harmonic balancer) and the bolt and to put it back together and torque it correctly. lots of folks have done this with good success. i have never heard of the crank bolt threads being bad. I've fixed several "wobblers" myself. Infact I believe there are some pics of one we did in my gallery. Never have seen bad crank threads myself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dangordon0128 Posted September 29, 2011 Author Share Posted September 29, 2011 Thanks everyone, this is great information. The car is about 70 miles away, is there a way to get it home other than towing it? This is the second occurance, if it is not stripped, would i assume that it was damaged previously and that damage is causing it to spin off? I think i have everything but the heli coil kit. I have been looking for documentation of the bolt size in order to look for the correct size tools but have been unsuccessful without having the bolt here. Is there a resource for this? Again, thank you for this it is a tremendous help for both my nerves and comfidence. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WoodsWagon Posted September 29, 2011 Share Posted September 29, 2011 This is the second occurance, if it is not stripped, would i assume that it was damaged previously and that damage is causing it to spin off? You can try tightening the bolt down and driving it the 70 miles back, but the pulley will try to fall off again. The reason it came off a second time is because all those surfaces on the pulley and sprocket and bolt and crank shoulder that need to be flat and parallel were beat up from the pulley wobbling around. When the bolt was re-tightened, those non-flat surfaces weren't really grabbing each other like they should, so it worked back and forth until the bolt started walking out again. That's why the real fix involves a fresh bolt, pulley, and sprocket with a properly torqued bolt. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ocei77 Posted September 29, 2011 Share Posted September 29, 2011 I have been looking for documentation of the bolt size in order to look for the correct size tools but have been unsuccessful without having the bolt here. 22mm O. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rooster2 Posted September 29, 2011 Share Posted September 29, 2011 You can try tightening the bolt down and driving it the 70 miles back, but the pulley will try to fall off again. The reason it came off a second time is because all those surfaces on the pulley and sprocket and bolt and crank shoulder that need to be flat and parallel were beat up from the pulley wobbling around. When the bolt was re-tightened, those non-flat surfaces weren't really grabbing each other like they should, so it worked back and forth until the bolt started walking out again. That's why the real fix involves a fresh bolt, pulley, and sprocket with a properly torqued bolt. I had the same problem years back on a 91 Leggie with the 2.2. The bolt kept backing out, but would still thread in. Finally, a mechanic applied blue locktite to the threads, and tightened it up real good. That fixed the problem. The bolt never came loose again. I would try the locktite before trying any other fix. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeneralDisorder Posted September 29, 2011 Share Posted September 29, 2011 I had the same problem years back on a 91 Leggie with the 2.2. The bolt kept backing out, but would still thread in. Finally, a mechanic applied blue locktite to the threads, and tightened it up real good. That fixed the problem. The bolt never came loose again. I would try the locktite before trying any other fix. That's exactly how I handle them. Clean everything, replace key, sprocket and balancer, and loctite (blue NOT red ) the bolt and I haven't had an issue with any of them. GD Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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