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Torque bind problem fixed


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25 replies to this topic

#1 gyuunuuya

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Posted 28 March 2006 - 07:54 PM

Ok after 3 days of being underneath the car, and tons of info and phone calls to various people I don't know I got evevything figured out.

The Problem : 1992 Legacy AWD non turbo automatic

With driveshaft in car and FWD fuse in box, when taking right or lefts the rear wheels lock up and make the whole car shake, and the rears peel out a bit (The car is locked in 4 wheel drive mode so all 4 tires spin equally). Also with driveshaft out the binding goes away however the gas mileage is about 14 MPG.

The Reason :

The rear wheels have to travel a farther distance then the front and since the car is locked in 4WD mode the rear wheels need to turn more but since they can't they lock up and drag on the ground instead.

Mileage may be caused from either the fact that apparently subarus are designed that when you first accelerate all 4 wheels have power and then it gradually moves the power to 90 front/10 rear. Also since the car isn't functioning correctly maybe the computer is confused and is applying to much gas to the car or something.

The solution (for me at least)

STEPS

1) Drain the tranny fluid (on my legacy it was 8.8 quarts) and check for burn smell or debris. Fill tranny back up. If the problem just started and you got to it right away this should fix your problem.

2) If you found debris in your tranny fluid and filling it back up didn't seem to help check your tranny filter and see if that's gunked up.

3) If tranny fluid and filter all seem fine it's time to start getting
dirty:eek:. Get under the car and unbolt the frontside of th driveshaft and let it dangle down. Also in order to do that you should unbolt the guard in the back since the driveshaft probably won't move down enough for u to get it out. I personally unbolted the rear guard without trying so maybe u can get it out just fine without removing it.

4) Unbolt the section of exhaust that runs from your cat to your exhaust manifold I guess, not sure what it's called. It's between the place when your exhaust forks down from 4 pipes to 1 and before your cat too. I'm sure you'll figure it out. Also you will more then likely break some bolts, don't worry about it that's not much you can do that I know of since they are exhaust bolts. You will probably have to visit an exhaust shop afterwards, I did and it costs me 40 bucks to have that fixed.

5) Now hopefully all your tranny fluid is not inside your tranny you are gonna unbolt the back houseing of the tranny, it's pretty simple. You now have to coax the housing off the tranny, I used a chisle next to a mounting pin and a hammer to lightly make a wedge. Just be careful not to groove the housing where the gasket goes or else it will leak. Once I got enough of a gap that when I moved the housing up and down it jiggled I just started jiggling it till it came off.

6) Now unbolt the transfer clutch solenoid and get some alligator clips. Plug one clip to ground and one to hot side of battery terminal. You should hear a loud click when u do. Also if you truly want to test it once the solenoid has power blow on the little hole with your mouth it should let air pass through, and when solenoid has no power no air should pass through. If that doesn't seem to be working great you found the problem :clap:, replace and all should be fine.

7) If that seems to be working fine there is a sensor on the back of the houseing that needs no unbolting or messy stuff. You can pull it out and check it for debris, and also ohm it out with a volt meter. Should be about 600 Ohms working.

8) Ok now for where my problem was LOL. If all those seem just fine and you bought the car from some car for 600 bucks time to check the transfer clutches themselves. Opps they are all welded together and there are alot of signed of burning all around the gears. Time to replace it.

9)
Time to grab some alot of razor blades, and start scraping. get as much of the old gasket off both sides of the housing, and make sure you get the top of the houseing from the side that's still attached to the car.
You can buy a gasket set of be cheap like me and use some instant gasket making, just make sure it resists oil. Also get some acetone or laceur thinner and wipe down both sides of housing really well. Apply gasket and carefully attach housing back together. Slap everything back together and MAKE SURE YOU PUT TRANNY FLUID BACK IN ( I did that once on my first car :slobber: ) !!!!


10) Since you are down there why don't you change the front diff fluid and the rear as well.


Hope this helps someone else with my problem. Please reply if it does. Or if I missed anything. :headbang:

Here are the pics I took plus an eletric diagrams for a 92 subaru legacy tranny

The housing you'll need to remove

Attached File  housing.jpg   15.38K   203 downloads

Under the car shot with stuff removed

Attached File  carriage.jpg   14.22K   197 downloads

Big difference between the bad gear and good gear. On bad gear all clutches were welded together.
Attached File  gears-compare.jpg   14.61K   252 downloads

Attached Files



#2 Chef

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Posted 28 March 2006 - 08:05 PM

Very nice write up. This is one of the most comprehensive posts on the topic, covering all bases neatly and succinctly. Good stuff!

Chef

#3 lmdew

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Posted 28 March 2006 - 08:35 PM

Did you check the C-duty S from the trany harnes before you pulled it apart?

I have the same problem on a 97 Legacy 2.2, code 24 - shorted/open C-DS. I'm Looking for the correct pins/wire colors at the engine compartment trans plugs so I can test it with out pulling the transfer housing. Thanks for the Info!

#4 gyuunuuya

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Posted 28 March 2006 - 09:28 PM

Did you check the C-duty S from the trany harnes before you pulled it apart?

I have the same problem on a 97 Legacy 2.2, code 24 - shorted/open C-DS. I'm Looking for the correct pins/wire colors at the engine compartment trans plugs so I can test it with out pulling the transfer housing. Thanks for the Info!


Check later on this post.

I'm gonna put a wireing diagram and a bunch of pics I took. :grin:

#5 gyuunuuya

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Posted 28 March 2006 - 10:00 PM

Also this os some more info I found on later year subaru's.

This guy has a racing subaru site. here is link for more info, but most of it is for installing aftermarket parts.

http://legacycentral.../torquebind.htm

"Torque-Bind"

By Dave

This has been a hot topic of late, as more and more older Subaru Legacies reach high mileage and drivetrain wear becomes a factor. One of the most common problems in AWD 4EAT automatic transmission equipped cars is the dreaded "torque-bind".

The most common symptoms of this problem are a shudder throughout the whole car, but more pronounced beneath the seat, when accelerating in a low-speed turn. The shudder will stop if power is removed and disappears when speed goes beyond the threshold of most tires or the wheels are straightened out.

Recently i've found out that the early model Legacies don't actually have the wear problems listed below, but frequently have a malfunctioning solenoid in the same area that causes pressure problems and very similar symptoms. Replacing this should fix the problems in pre-95 models.

The solution to the problem is relatively simple and comprehensive but first you should know what causes this problem.

The evolution of the problem and the solution were shown to me by a Master Technician at Subaru of Ogden in Ogden, Utah.

In the rear of the transmission is a watermelon sized aluminum housing that contains several valves, bushings and seals. The rear driveshaft that couples with the rear differential. The problem occurs in here, and the replacement of this cures it.

Inside of the housing the rear shaft spins and has teflon bushings and fluid seals for the AWD system. This is where much of the rear power is transferred. The problem occurs when these bushings wear against the aluminum. For some reason Subaru, or the transmission manufacturers, decided not to have a bearing or liner in lieu of using the housing itself as the wear surface.

This is where the problem and solution lies.

The bushings and seals wear the aluminum down after time. This allows the pressurized ATF to leak from one chamber to the next. The torque meant to be transferred to the rear ends up being greatly reduced and the fluid transaction causes the shuddering.

Thankfully the fix is relatively inexpensive and doesn't require the transmission to be removed.

At Subaru of Ogden i got to see a 95+ Legacy in the midst of this operation. The rear driveshaft and exhaust rear of the Catalytic Convertor have to be removed and the rear transmission housing needs to be removed.

The housing is completely replaced with a new one. New internal components are included and apparently the bushings and seals on the driveshaft are also replaced. The most important piece of the solution is the addition of a steel liner to protect the aluminum housing against wear. This should ensure that this problem doesn't occur for the remaining life of the car.

The procedure was quoted as $750 by Subaru of Ogden.

An updated case with the steel liner was put into prodution and installed in all new cars in mid-1997.

You may never have this problem but if you do, there is a relatively easy and inexpensive solution to a more and more common problem.



#6 gyuunuuya

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Posted 28 March 2006 - 11:37 PM

Apparently I can' t post more then 5 pics per post so here's another one

OK here is where the solenoid is

Attached File  solenoid.jpg   17.87K   211 downloads


Good gear

Attached File  new-gear.jpg   17.85K   127 downloads

Some parts you are gonna take out

Attached File  parts.jpg   17.1K   176 downloads

My bad sensor unit, somehow it got smashed up

Attached File  terminal.jpg   14.73K   154 downloads

Attached Files



#7 gyuunuuya

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Posted 28 March 2006 - 11:38 PM

And the last one is the tranny diagram:headbang:

Attached Files



#8 Setright

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Posted 29 March 2006 - 02:54 AM

WOW! Nice info. Thanks for putting that on here.

I hope people without this problem will read the post and decide to replace their tranny fluid filter before they have problems!

#9 grossgary

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Posted 29 March 2006 - 07:28 AM

Awesome.

#10 seanski06

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Posted 29 March 2006 - 08:37 AM

does torque bind ever occur in 5-speed tranny's

#11 grossgary

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Posted 29 March 2006 - 08:41 AM

does torque bind ever occur in 5-speed tranny's

i don't believe so on EJ transmissions. if it did, it would be a completely different kind of failure, only similiar symptoms. auto and manual transmissions share nothing in common really. entirely different concept, design and operation. no electronics on a manual trans.

older EA and ER series manual transmission subaru's from the 80's and early 90's have center differential locks that could cause similar symptoms. but not until the newer LSD center diff versions could you have any issues like that. these LSD centers are rare and i would expect few issues like this though on an LSD type center diff.

#12 nipper

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Posted 29 March 2006 - 04:05 PM

Yes it does but is much more rare on manual trannies. Unfortunitly once it does rear its ugly head on a manual tranny, once you confirm the tires are all ok, its usually too late. No fluid to flush, no solenoid to replace, it's all sealed.
And torque bind becomes much more rare on 1997 1/2 and newer years. It was a mid year change that they redesinged (damn cant spell today)the valve seat. It seems the probelm runs as a design fault from 1995-1997 1/2. It can happen on any year as parts wear, and tires get mismatched, or not changing the tranny fluid.

nipper

#13 gyuunuuya

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Posted 29 March 2006 - 04:35 PM

Did you check the C-duty S from the trany harnes before you pulled it apart?

I have the same problem on a 97 Legacy 2.2, code 24 - shorted/open C-DS. I'm Looking for the correct pins/wire colors at the engine compartment trans plugs so I can test it with out pulling the transfer housing. Thanks for the Info!


Did the diagram help you out Imdew?

If you have anymore questions just ask.

#14 TROGDOR!

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Posted 01 May 2006 - 10:42 AM

Bringing this back to the top...

So do I need to use the rear housing and internal parts from a 97-up 4EAT, or just order new components for my 94 and pray it doesn't happen again?

#15 nipper

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Posted 01 May 2006 - 11:09 AM

All replacement AWD units have been redesigned so you dont get the issue again, unless of course you do something wrong (tires etc)

nipper

#16 TROGDOR!

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Posted 01 May 2006 - 12:53 PM

Cool. Anybody got part numbers?

#17 Kilroy

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Posted 09 July 2006 - 04:03 PM

Awesome info, thanks!! :headbang:

Will a rear housing from a '97 or newer match up with an older transmission?

#18 nipper

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Posted 09 July 2006 - 04:12 PM

Awesome info, thanks!! :headbang:

Will a rear housing from a '97 or newer match up with an older transmission?


that i dont know.

nipper

#19 ericem

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Posted 09 July 2006 - 09:33 PM

why did i post here?

#20 gyuunuuya

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Posted 09 July 2006 - 10:45 PM

Awesome info, thanks!! :headbang:

Will a rear housing from a '97 or newer match up with an older transmission?


Call a subaru dealer and ask. They will know for sure

#21 newsance

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Posted 03 January 2007 - 11:01 AM

Where do you buy the parts? Mine doesn't have torque bind, but it doesn't engage either.

#22 gyuunuuya

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Posted 04 January 2007 - 02:18 PM

Where do you buy the parts? Mine doesn't have torque bind, but it doesn't engage either.


I got my parts from a japanese engine importer, however I bought the whole tranny for 400 I think. But I ended up using just the transfer clutches in the housing.

You might be able to go to a pull u part junkyard and just pull out the rear housing for pretty cheap. Definetly cheaper then 400 bucks :)

Hope this helps you.

#23 86subaru

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Posted 04 January 2007 - 06:15 PM

what would be agood name brand tranny fluid ?

#24 nipper

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Posted 04 January 2007 - 06:20 PM

I got my parts from a japanese engine importer, however I bought the whole tranny for 400 I think. But I ended up using just the transfer clutches in the housing.

You might be able to go to a pull u part junkyard and just pull out the rear housing for pretty cheap. Definetly cheaper then 400 bucks :)

Hope this helps you.


I think someplace in the mass of TB threads, somone did it themselves with new parts from the dealer, and the parts were in the 400-500 range

i'll see if i can find my bill and see what the parts cost
.

nipper

#25 johnceggleston

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Posted 04 January 2007 - 07:13 PM

yeah , i fixed mine temporarily. i put the rear section of the drive shaft in the trunk. hello FWD. it buys me time till i can fix it.

and before you say it, i know....."they put that drive shaft there for a reason." :brow:

john




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