gijoe985 Posted October 1, 2009 Share Posted October 1, 2009 (edited) Alright, some of you may have read my other thread that was about burning coolant and then the tick. I figured the tick is now my problem so I am focusing on it. I replaced head gaskets on my 91 legacy 2.2 non turbo. Runs fine now, but I have a lifting ticking problem that was not there before. My entire intake row (4 lifters) are getting squishy on the passenger side and are ticking loudly. When I did the heads they were machined. One exhaust lifter was replaced because it was collapsed. Right now the exhaust all hold their prime. If I prime the intakes they run quiet for a little while, but after a few minutes of driving they start making noise again and when I take them off, all squishy. I have even replaced all of my intake lifters with new ones. But it still came back (though not quite as loud, but still too loud to try to sell this car ([my goal]). I was suggested to see if there was a plugged oil passage preventing them from getting oil pressure, but it looks to me that it would be the same passage that feeds the exhaust lifters and yet they stay pumped up just fine... Any thoughts or direction? Oh, I also put a quart of MMO in the oil when I did the heads as suggested by another member to prevent the lifter tick... (SEE MY LATEST POST FOR UPDATE) Edited October 6, 2009 by gijoe985 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ericem Posted October 1, 2009 Share Posted October 1, 2009 Put a bottle of seafoam in the oil and drive it around keeping the rpm's around 4k for a bit like go on the highway for 10mins and keep the gear down. Drain a bit of oil first to just incase. Then when you get home the noise should be gone, and you can change the oil. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lostinthe202 Posted October 1, 2009 Share Posted October 1, 2009 How's your oil pump? Did you check the screws on the back-plate that covers the impeller? It may just be worn out, how many miles are on it. Will- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fairtax4me Posted October 1, 2009 Share Posted October 1, 2009 You may have to remove the rockers and clean the passages in the rocker shaft. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rooster2 Posted October 1, 2009 Share Posted October 1, 2009 You may have to remove the rockers and clean the passages in the rocker shaft. Sea Foam may clean the passages. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gijoe985 Posted October 2, 2009 Author Share Posted October 2, 2009 270k, so it is high mileage. Have not checked the oil pump. I know you guys have suggested driving it around a while, here are my thoughts. -After priming the lifters the sound goes away, then comes back after driving a little while. Could this be because the rocker shafts aren't primed and then they pump air into the lifters? -Why do only the top lifters compress and the bottom never have a problem? I replaced one of the bottom ones too, so I'd think the difference is in the placement, not the lifters themselves. -So I should use seafoam in addition to the MMO? I've got a quart of MO in there... -Would the fact that the driver side bank doesn't tick make the oil pump problem seem less likely? Low oil pressure seems like a possible cause, but it just seems funny that the problem is so isolated to one side, and only intake lifters... I'll try driving it around today. See what happens. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quidam Posted October 2, 2009 Share Posted October 2, 2009 Hi, "but it looks to me that it would be the same passage that feeds the exhaust lifters and yet they stay pumped up just fine..." Well, don't assume that. Look in a service manual for the oil flow chart. That will tell you what gets oil first, so on and so forth. It's probably a priority mains engine...main bearings first to get oil. It does sound like an oil pressure problem. Doug Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gijoe985 Posted October 3, 2009 Author Share Posted October 3, 2009 Well, as for the oil passage, both the exhaust and intake lifters are feed from an oil passage within the rocker arm assembly. It just seems funny that the upper ones don't get oil and the lower ones do, but it all runs through the same passage. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gijoe985 Posted October 6, 2009 Author Share Posted October 6, 2009 (edited) OK, this is kinda weird, I really don't know what to make of it. (Edit: Just before doing the following I tested oil pressure. I got 60psi @4000. Seems high? Book said 43psi @ 5000...) I went in to prime the lifters one last time, just to be sure. I took them out, primed them, then I swapped my intakes with my exhausts, because only my lifters were loosing their prime, so I swapped them just to see. Once I had everything back together I tried to start my engine and it would not start. I did a compression check on the #1 and get 60lbs. I did a leakdown test and got about 60%. Seemed like it was from the intake... I then let it sit for about 15 minutes and then did another compression test... got 125, (And I am certain that both readings were accurate.) Went to start it and it started and held a rough idle. I pulled off the plug wires for a power drain test. The 3 barely made a difference, the 1 was more than the 3, but not like pulling off the 2 or 4. I was also getting little popping noises from the engine. Kinda like small pops in the exhaust. But by no means a full on backfire... I then revved the engine to 4k and thet it settle. The small pops went away and the engine was idling better. Pulling the #3 plug wire made a much greater difference. (Oh, forgot to mention that up until not, there has been no lifter ticking) I then revved it again, held it for 15 seconds at 4k. This time the car's idle sounded pretty normal, but now there was the faintest tick. I had to quit there, but by the time I finished, the tick got even a little bit louder. I fully believe that if I start it up this morning, the tick will be back. What I think- I don't know the why/how, but I'm certain the my finding show evidence that the valves are not seating all the way when the lifters are fully primed. After sitting for a little while, the lifters are loosing their prime and this allows the valves to seat properly and restores compression. With more time, it seems that the valves lose enough prime to create the tick. How? My only guess (which I think shows some logic, but it is still a far fetched guess) is that when doing the head gasket, I maybe didn't get the timing belt on right and... I don't know... I had a theory about that, but as I sit here typing, that theory makes less sense... The heads were machined when the gaskets were done. I reused the exhaust gaskets, but I know that's not the sound. Any direction would be amazing. If it is not done today, I will be posting it for sale tonight as-is. Which I'd rather not have t explain to every buyer about the lifter tick... Edited October 6, 2009 by gijoe985 Added oil pressure info Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lostinthe202 Posted October 6, 2009 Share Posted October 6, 2009 What did you replace when you did your gasket job in the way of timing components? Did you do all the idlers and the belt tensioner? If you didn't, perhaps your tensioner is shot causing your timing to slip and run rough and giving the low compression? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gijoe985 Posted October 6, 2009 Author Share Posted October 6, 2009 What did you replace when you did your gasket job in the way of timing components? Did you do all the idlers and the belt tensioner? If you didn't, perhaps your tensioner is shot causing your timing to slip and run rough and giving the low compression? Yeah, but the compression is back up again... That's the funny thing. It went down when I primed the lifters, but it went back up over 20 minutes. I think the lifters were holding the valves open, but then lost some pressure and then the valves seated.... Why, I don't know... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
987687 Posted October 6, 2009 Share Posted October 6, 2009 Well, they are self-adjusting. So I assume you're putting more pressure on them than when the engine runs causing them to keep the valves open. Have you tried just replacing the adjusters? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gijoe985 Posted October 6, 2009 Author Share Posted October 6, 2009 Well, they are self-adjusting. So I assume you're putting more pressure on them than when the engine runs causing them to keep the valves open. Have you tried just replacing the adjusters? By adjusters, do you mean lifters? If so, I've already done that. There are so many names for these darned things.... at the store they were called cam followers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gijoe985 Posted October 6, 2009 Author Share Posted October 6, 2009 Ok, just got off the phone with a dealership mechanic. He says that he's seen something like this before. What he said was that if the front oil seal has a leak, it can suck air into the oiling system. So I need to check that. Is there any way to get the front seal off without removing the oil pump? If not, I'll just dig in, but if I can avoid the full job, that'd be nice... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rooster2 Posted October 6, 2009 Share Posted October 6, 2009 Ok, just got off the phone with a dealership mechanic. He says that he's seen something like this before. What he said was that if the front oil seal has a leak, it can suck air into the oiling system. So I need to check that. Is there any way to get the front seal off without removing the oil pump? If not, I'll just dig in, but if I can avoid the full job, that'd be nice... Mechanic saying potential front oil seal leak causing air to get sucked into the lubrication system makes a lot of sense. I kept reading your posts, and poor lubrication seemed like a likely cause to me causing all that ticking. I am thinking that the oil pump has to be removed to replace the seal. Hope someone for sure can tell you a "yea or nae" on pump removal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Olnick Posted October 6, 2009 Share Posted October 6, 2009 Is there any way to get the front seal off without removing the oil pump? If you're that far in I think you'd be wise to take the oil pump off and check it anyway. Make sure backing plate is tight, new o-ring and reseal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davebugs Posted October 6, 2009 Share Posted October 6, 2009 If you're that far in I think you'd be wise to take the oil pump off and check it anyway. Make sure backing plate is tight, new o-ring and reseal. The oil pump screws were suggested as one of the first posts in the old thread. I'd certainly take the time to check them when doing the seal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnceggleston Posted October 6, 2009 Share Posted October 6, 2009 so the tick goes away short term when you prime the lifters but your compression goes way down. when the tick comes back so does the compression. i was wondering if it might be t-belt tensioner noise, not lifter tick, but that would not go away with priming the lifters. this way beyond my knowledge. keep at it and good luck. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fairtax4me Posted October 7, 2009 Share Posted October 7, 2009 The whole point of a hydraulic lifter is to regulate valve lash so that it doesn't require constant adjustment to keep it from ticking. Being over-filled will cause the valve to hang open slightly, resulting in low to no compression. That doesn't answer the question of why they are bleeding off and beginning to tick. It doesn't appear to be an issue of pressure, but it could be an issue of volume. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gijoe985 Posted October 12, 2009 Author Share Posted October 12, 2009 Well, I took a few days off to spend time with my daughter, but I'm back at it today. I guess I'll have t remove the oil pump, but the Chilton manual says I need to remove the water pump as well. Which means yet another gasket to buy. I got a Fel-Pro kit for the oil pump, seal, etc. Maybe can do it without doing the water pump... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gijoe985 Posted October 12, 2009 Author Share Posted October 12, 2009 The oil pump screws were suggested as one of the first posts in the old thread. I'd certainly take the time to check them when doing the seal. I'm sorry I was skeptical before, but it originally seemed like a straight forward scenario. To clarify, the screws are the ones that hold the backing plate onto the oil pump? I'm pretty certain that is what was being referred to... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davebugs Posted October 12, 2009 Share Posted October 12, 2009 I'm usually doing it all. But I believe the WP doesn't need to be removed at all to do the oil pump. But I do buy the OEM WP gasket if one is needed. Yes - when you remove the oil pump (you'll need a new crank seal - OEM recommended) you'll be able to see the screws on the back. Make sure they are tight. Some here use Loctite. I install the crank seal after the oil pump is re-installed. But there was a thread about that recently some folsk install the seal while the pump is on the bench. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Log1call Posted October 12, 2009 Share Posted October 12, 2009 Something that may interest you... http://endwrench.com/images/pdfs/LoyalInfo.pdf Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gijoe985 Posted October 12, 2009 Author Share Posted October 12, 2009 (edited) Well, I replace the oil pump gaskets and seals, as well as the water pump gaskets. No I didn't need to remove the water pump to get the oil pump off. So I put it together and now it barely runs... It seems to be lean... Or at least it dies whenever I open the throttle. I first thought timing, but I'm not certain. Part of me feels like a sensor got knocked off and is causing my problems. I've got 125psi in all cylinders, not a ton, but it's an old engine. Is there a way to check the timing mark on the crankshaft without taking everything off? I've noticed that I don't think the timing marks line it up to TDC. I removed the cam covers and both of those marks line up perfectly, and when installing everything looked good, but I noticed that when the crank gear is aligned with its timing mark, if I installed the crank pulley the timing was not at TDC. Please correct me if I'm wrong. I'll keep looking, but I hope I don't need to tear her down again... Oh, and when I checked the timing with my timing light, it was near 30 degrees, but I couldn't get a good idle. So with an idle varying from 800-1100, my timing was still hopping around the 30 degree mark. Could my CPS be messed up? Obviously timing being off by 20 degree could create an issue, but again the timing could just be the engine compensating for another problem... Edited October 12, 2009 by gijoe985 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fairtax4me Posted October 13, 2009 Share Posted October 13, 2009 From what I understand the mark for installing the timing belt puts the crank at about mid stroke. It sounds like the timing could be off a tooth. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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