NoahDL88 Posted June 27, 2011 Share Posted June 27, 2011 We all know the 2.2 Legacy harness from the 89-95 is "easy" to parse down and get to a workable unit, and the computer is fairly tolerant to modifications, but has anyone found the upper limit as to what it will accurately and sufficiently flow fuel to? I'm hoping to run a Franken Engine with cams and a good exhaust, but at some point the stock setup will max out the fuel injectors to keep the engine from leaning out. Once we get an answer, or if its already been found lets add this to the Franken-Engine thread Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeneralDisorder Posted June 27, 2011 Share Posted June 27, 2011 (edited) The 90 to 94 OBD-I harness is not a good choice IMO. The '96+ (95 is weird and to be avoided also) is easier to strip as there is no SMJ and only two extra plugs (The OBD-II port itself, and the rear O2 sensor plug). In addition, the OBD-I computer doesn't seem to like cam changes while the OBD-II stuff seems to be much more tollerant. The idle fluctuations with cams on the OBD-I ECU is pretty pronounced. Personally I have decided I won't do any more OBD-I harnesses for my own swaps. The OBD-II wins on all accounts - easier to strip, handles mods better, and it's code-reader compliant. I have not seen an issue with running lean - even on the OBD-I. The frankenmotor is more effecient due to it's high compression and the EJ25D uses the same injectors as the EJ22..... the overhead seems to be adequate. GD Edited June 27, 2011 by GeneralDisorder Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoahDL88 Posted June 27, 2011 Author Share Posted June 27, 2011 Awesome, Have you found anything on stripping the OBD-II harness? I know, I know, search...... Thanks for the help Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Numbchux Posted June 27, 2011 Share Posted June 27, 2011 hYea, OBD II logic modules are much smarter. Able to correct fuel trims much better! Also, '96-'99(?) single-plug ECUs are interchangeable. So you can run a 2.5 ECU. And yea, harness is much easier to strip (and install). The engine control stuff doesn't spider into the entire harness nearly as much. My brat will be getting a '96 impreza harness. Stripping it is the same idea as the obd i stuff. Identify what you'll need, and remove everything else. But you'll find those 2 parts much easier to separate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeneralDisorder Posted June 28, 2011 Share Posted June 28, 2011 I have the neccesary documents to strip the OBD-II harnesses.... as Chux does. Some of them I think I got from his site in the first place actually . For the most part you don't really need too much documentation - especially if you label connectors as you disconnect them on the donor car. I have a more tedious time when I strip harnesses for people because they never label the plugs. After a while you begin to recognize them on sight and it's a lot easier..... generally speaking on the OBD-II harnesses.... if it's a water-tight plug on the engine bay side you will probably be keeping it..... I start by removing large sections of the harness that I know I won't need - stuff on the dash side that's obviously gauge cluster and steering column wireing.... any wires that head back into the ECU bundle I leave as long as I can. From there it's just a matter of following the wires from each plug that you think can be removed and deciding if any of them go to the ECU and if so what their function is and if you want to keep them or not. That's where the ECU pin-out's and voltage charts come in handy. That's pretty much all I use - diagrams that show the ECU pin numbers, wire colors, and functions, and the ECU pin-voltage charts. GD Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoahDL88 Posted June 28, 2011 Author Share Posted June 28, 2011 Cool, I've done a few EJ22 swaps, so this should be cake. The donor car looks like it will be a 00 Outback, so things are looking good. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Numbchux Posted June 29, 2011 Share Posted June 29, 2011 yea, shouldn't be too hard. That '00 might have a 3- or 4-plug ECU. Not really a bad thing, just means it's a little different, and you probably won't find a plug and play 2.2 ECU (oh well...) It might also use a MAP sensor, and integrated IAC into the TB. These things will complicate the use of 2.2 intake/heads. But, IMHO, the flow of the 2.5 heads is better than the compression bump of the frankenmotor. We ran a '97 motor on an '02 ECU, wasn't toooo difficult to adapt the newer TB and MAP sensor onto the older motor, but it was a project. But, I don't have my FSMs on this computer, so I'm just going of the top of my head. I'm genuinely not sure what the '00 Outback would use, but these are the things to consider. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mykeys Toy Posted June 30, 2011 Share Posted June 30, 2011 True but I think with may not fit in a gen 3 without mods using 2.5 heads. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xbeerd Posted June 30, 2011 Share Posted June 30, 2011 the harness i am using for my ej25 swap is from a 00 outback. its a 3 plug ecu, and the harness wasnt too bad to strip down, like everyone has said, just label stuff. i didnt label anything, but i have the 00 Legacy FSM, i printed out all 8 million pages of it, all the info is there, if you want, pm me and i can give you my email address and i can get you the parts you need with pinouts and such or zip files for the whole manual Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoahDL88 Posted June 30, 2011 Author Share Posted June 30, 2011 True but I think with may not fit in a gen 3 without mods using 2.5 heads. So an EA-81 body is totally out of the question? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Numbchux Posted June 30, 2011 Share Posted June 30, 2011 True but I think with may not fit in a gen 3 without mods using 2.5 heads. gen 3? isn't that EA82? those fit just fine. I know DOHC heads won't work in an EA81....but I'm curious about SOHC 2.5 heads (which is what would be in a '00 outback). There's an EA81, and an '01 EJ251 on opposite ends of my buddy's shop.....I really need to get them next to each other. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoahDL88 Posted June 30, 2011 Author Share Posted June 30, 2011 Keep us updated. The car in question is ab out 150 miles away, so when I head up there I want to grab everything I need and not have to make a second trip, Well not for the car anyway, its always nice to visit Scott, I'd just rather take the bike, it gets 60mpg This engine may either end up in a 94 leggo, running 2.2 heads, or in the 86 hatch (EA-81) running propane, probably also with 2.2 heads to take advantage of the extra compression. Either way the harness may actually may be a moot point, the 94 can run the stock harness and I'll only need ignition for the propane swap. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeneralDisorder Posted July 1, 2011 Share Posted July 1, 2011 (edited) You may have to notch the frame rails for the EJ251..... but that's not a huge deal really if you can weld a bit. Bit of die-grinding.... little welding.... some rattle can. Propane Frankenmotor! I like where your heads at. Though I will caution that the stock ECU on the '94 will not particularly like the frankenmotor with cams.... I have never looked into it closely but it seems to me that an ECU from a 96 to 99 could be installed if you added the wireing for the OBD-II port (like three or four wires - two of which are power and ground) and the rear O2 sensor..... doesn't seem like it would be that difficult as they really are very simlar. GD Edited July 1, 2011 by GeneralDisorder Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gloyale Posted July 1, 2011 Share Posted July 1, 2011 gen 3? isn't that EA82? those fit just fine. I know DOHC heads won't work in an EA81....but I'm curious about SOHC 2.5 heads (which is what would be in a '00 outback). There's an EA81, and an '01 EJ251 on opposite ends of my buddy's shop.....I really need to get them next to each other. My phase I EJ22 fits in the EA81 body with about 1/2" clearance to the frame rails or less on each side. Pretty sure a Phase II 2.2 or 2.5 won't fit an EA81 body without frame rail mods. Fit's in the EA82 body just fine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott in Bellingham Posted July 1, 2011 Share Posted July 1, 2011 Keep us updated. The car in question is ab out 150 miles away, so when I head up there I want to grab everything I need and not have to make a second trip, Well not for the car anyway, its always nice to visit Scott, . so you goin with this one? hadnt herd also we CAN make that engine fit Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoahDL88 Posted July 1, 2011 Author Share Posted July 1, 2011 so you goin with this one? Yeah, I gotta call you Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mykeys Toy Posted July 2, 2011 Share Posted July 2, 2011 So long as there is a build thread and lots of pics I will be happy either way:grin: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
True2Blue Posted July 4, 2011 Share Posted July 4, 2011 im gonna keep tuned in! stand alone ever cross anyones mind? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoahDL88 Posted July 5, 2011 Author Share Posted July 5, 2011 I've been debating standalone, but it seems a bit excessive for just running ignition. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
True2Blue Posted July 5, 2011 Share Posted July 5, 2011 Im really into this build the next week ill be reading up all i can on it. Standalone systems were mentioned by my instructor which is why i said something. do you know of anyone that as decently modified one (frankenmotor) like cams, port n polish (regardless of what one might say the gains are) ect like a complete system upgrade fuel spark flow... i just wanted to know numbers i know GD built one but i dont remember the numbers you are on to something good myfriend Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeneralDisorder Posted July 5, 2011 Share Posted July 5, 2011 The same build that Jacob runs (EJ25D block+HG's, EJ22E dual-port heads, delta torque cams) was dyno'd by someone on NASIOC (at a fairly high elevation IIRC) at 208 HP. So far we have had no reliability problems with this combo running 92 octane. My butt dyno agree's with that figure. I've driven a lot of different rides with around that much power and it definitely feels like it's right around the 200 mark. The torque is obscene as well - it starts at 1200 RPM. Jacob's Brat is not lifted as it is built for Rally-X.... as such it's quite a dangerous machine even on dry pavement if you aren't a fairly experienced driver. The front helical LSD probably has something to do with that. It will outrun a stock 2.0 WRX and probably give a stock 2.5 WRX a darn good run. GD Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roostema4328 Posted July 6, 2011 Share Posted July 6, 2011 I personally dont understand the frankenmotor concept. wouldnt it be better just to use the whole ej25d. and just put high compression pistons in it. you would have more flow and more compression. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeneralDisorder Posted July 6, 2011 Share Posted July 6, 2011 (edited) I personally dont understand the frankenmotor concept. wouldnt it be better just to use the whole ej25d. and just put high compression pistons in it. you would have more flow and more compression. And WAY more cost. The whole concept of the frankenmotor is built around being inexpensive. Go ahead and price out a head rebuild on the DOHC heads, and a set of high-comp pistons and rings. Now you are talking about opening up the block..... that's not what this is about. Frankenmotor recipe: 1. Used, good condition EJ25D short block ~$200 2. Rebuilt EJ22E heads (generally you already have them so only the rebuild cost) ~$160 3. Timing belt/WP kit ~$120 4. Delta torque cams ~$170 5. Misc. gaskets and seals ~$100 That's a grand total of $750 for an engine that reliably makes over 200 HP without a turbo. If you wanted to use the DOHC heads - add another $350 to the rebuild cost, and another $170 for two more cams. Around $500 for high comp. pistons and then about $500 more for bearings and rings. That brings the cost up to about $1800 - well over double the cost for gains that are incremental and all above 5k RPM because you still have the some comp. ratio - just heads that flow 25% more. Not a win. And arguing that using the whole used EJ25D is better is not viable either - they run about $1200 for a good used one, and are only 165 HP stock. Also not a win - more expensive and lower performing. GD Edited July 6, 2011 by GeneralDisorder Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
True2Blue Posted July 6, 2011 Share Posted July 6, 2011 I personally dont understand the frankenmotor concept. wouldnt it be better just to use the whole ej25d. and just put high compression pistons in it. you would have more flow and more compression. you slap a 2.5 block in-between your 2.2 head keeping everything else the same Grasp that:eek: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roostema4328 Posted July 6, 2011 Share Posted July 6, 2011 (edited) well I am not going to argue. I totally understand what all you are saying. and you are right but so am I. its all just personal opinion. using the info from GDs post above I was thinking of. 1. Used, good condition EJ25D short block needing head gaskets ~$400 Around $500 for high comp. pistons 3. Timing belt/WP kit ~$120 5. Misc. gaskets and seals ~$100 so sorry my option would be a little more. at 1120.00 I was not talking of rebuilding the engine. and neither were you. that is not a fair argument. You can install pistons without tearing into the bottom end. I bet the stock EJ25d heads would flow better than the EJ22 heads with cams so no cams. of course you could spend more you always can. Edited July 6, 2011 by roostema4328 forgot about da heads ha ha Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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