'98 Outback, Keep or Replace?

[jhelman]

I have a '98 Legacy Outback Ltd with 105,000 miles. The alternator just went, and I had my neighbor replace it (he's a Subaru mechanic). He noticed many things that are wrong with it, and said that I will need a new upper block, head gasket, while were in there, clutch, plug wires,...

The front and back brakes will also need replacement.

 

He was thinking that he could do it all for around 4 to 5K.

 

My question is, is it worth it to spend this money on a car that has this many miles? The timing belt and water pump have less than 10,000 miles.

 

Other than some cosmetic problems (paint peeling around hood scoop), the car has been awesome.

 

I trust my neighbor completlely, as he would have no reason to lie to me.

 

Should I fix it? or should I look into getting a newer outback with around 30k miles? Will my subie start to become a money pit at this point?

 

Thanks a lot,

 

Jon

[Dickensheets]

I have a '98 Legacy Outback Ltd with 105,000 miles. The alternator just went, and I had my neighbor replace it (he's a Subaru mechanic). He noticed many things that are wrong with it, and said that I will need a new upper block, head gasket, while were in there, clutch, plug wires,...

The front and back brakes will also need replacement.

 

He was thinking that he could do it all for around 4 to 5K.

 

My question is, is it worth it to spend this money on a car that has this many miles? The timing belt and water pump have less than 10,000 miles.

 

Other than some cosmetic problems (paint peeling around hood scoop), the car has been awesome.

 

I trust my neighbor completlely, as he would have no reason to lie to me.

 

Should I fix it? or should I look into getting a newer outback with around 30k miles? Will my subie start to become a money pit at this point?

 

Thanks a lot,

 

Jon

 

Slow down a bit. What are the symptoms of these so called problems. Address them one at a time. Brakes and plug wires are cheap and easy. No issue there.

 

Why does he say new "block and clutch"? Tell us the symptoms. Does it overheat? Does it drive ok?

 

Clutches do wear out, they are supposed to. Fix it and move on. Even "IF" it needs head gaskets they can be done same time as the clutch for much less than $4000. Sounds like your neighbor wants your car to me.

 

rd

[rweddy]

Slow down a bit. What are the symptoms of these so called problems. Address them one at a time. Brakes and plug wires are cheap and easy. No issue there.

 

Why does he say new "block and clutch"? Tell us the symptoms. Does it overheat? Does it drive ok?

 

Clutches do wear out, they are supposed to. Fix it and move on. Even "IF" it needs head gaskets they can be done same time as the clutch for much less than $4000. Sounds like your neighbor wants your car to me.

 

rd

I agree, 4-5k is way over priced.

[jhelman]

At this point the car runs great. It burns about 1.5-2 quarts of oil every 3000 miles.

The main symptom of that my neighbor was looking at was a black residue in the coolant overflow resevoir that smelled like burnt petrolium.

When I had the timing belt/water pump replaced 2 years ago, the mechanic thought that there was a restrictiion in the radiator, and thought that it should be addressed. He said that it could lead to head gasket problems.

Needless to say, I didn't address it.

 

I only mentioned the clutch, because it's never been replaced, and it will save labor charges in the future if we replace it now.

 

I think that I forgot to mention the radiator last time, so that was also in the price that he was thinking.

 

My neighbor was thinking that it might be smarter to get a new car because things might start to go wrong more frequently. He would have nothing to gain if I traded it in, or sold it.

 

Thanks for the reply,

Jon

[outback_97]

Sounds odd to me too. Things get replaced when they're broken or as part of the manufacturer's suggested maintenance. Not arbitrarily.

 

Did your neighbor mention to you that the alternator might be covered under recall, or did you have to pay for the alternator repair? I'd check into that, if the recall was never done in the past it may be covered.

 

Steve

 

EDIT: I posted before reading his reply. Ah, more info. Alternator question still stands.

[jhelman]

I didn't know about any recalls with the alternator. He gave it to me at his cost (~$80) with $25 in labor. It's a new factory alternator.

[Dickensheets]

OK now we've narrowed it down.

 

It's very possible you need a new radiator. But before you start shopping - has it overheated?

 

As far as oil burn, try a slightly thicker oil, maybe 10w-40 or 15w-40 or 15w-50. This may slow it down. After that not a lot of options except rebuild.

 

Black stuff in the expansion tank - could be a headgasket, but look further before we assume the worst. Any overheating?? Have the coolant tested for combustion gasses.

[jhelman]

It has not overheated yet. Most of the urgency at this point is that my family was going to take it about 10 hours to a pretty hot area. My neighbor said that he wouldn't risk it based on his experience with the engines.

 

If these are symptoms of a head gasket, then I don't mind putting in the money and getting things replaced. If it gets another 100 thousand miles, then all this is well worth it. I certainly wouldn't mind doing the clutch, since it's bound to go at some point (it's still the original).

 

I just know that the brakes will need to be done also. The mechanic two years ago told me that I should at least replace the front discs/rotars.

[1 Lucky Texan]

If the issue with 'black stuff' in the radiator cannot be addressed/reapaired before the trip - rent a vehicle.

 

many of the issues mentioned are common to ALL cars, just because they seem to occur at once, does not reflect on the Subaru or its age.

 

Even IF it cost 4K (sounds like it may not need everything done at once if it runs well) that's like - what? - 15 new car payments? If you get another used car, it could very well have most of the same problems.

 

If the car no longer meets your needs, yeah - consider trading it in - though, if its present condition is as poor as the neighbor suggests, it will be devalued.

 

I say, no out of town trips as is, investigate further, address anything that needs immediate attention(raditor/headgasket, clutch, brakes), schedule things like plugs/wires, accessory belts, etc. over the next year or two. Even a bad CV joint will last for months.

 

Carl

[nipper]

I have a '98 Legacy Outback Ltd with 105,000 miles. The alternator just went, and I had my neighbor replace it (he's a Subaru mechanic). He noticed many things that are wrong with it, and said that I will need a new upper block, head gasket, while were in there, clutch, plug wires,...

The front and back brakes will also need replacement.

 

He was thinking that he could do it all for around 4 to 5K.

 

My question is, is it worth it to spend this money on a car that has this many miles? The timing belt and water pump have less than 10,000 miles.

 

Other than some cosmetic problems (paint peeling around hood scoop), the car has been awesome.

 

I trust my neighbor completlely, as he would have no reason to lie to me.

 

Should I fix it? or should I look into getting a newer outback with around 30k miles? Will my subie start to become a money pit at this point?

 

Thanks a lot,

 

Jon

 

what is an upper block?

this sounds so suspisous. If the car is running fine, and you hadnt had many complaints, i would be highly suspisous.

 

Brakes you can do yourself.

When was the last time this thing had a PCV valve replaced (oil usage). Is the car burning oil or using oil.

When the timing belt was done, were the seals replaced.

at 105,000 miles there is no need for this to be a money pit unless it wasnt maintained.

This entire thing sounds suspisous.

Why do you need a headgasket? Is the car leaking or overheating?

 

His price is way too high, should be someplace around 2000.00

Take it to a real shop where you get a warrenty.

Having neighbors work on a car can ruin freindships.

 

nipper

[jhelman]

Sorry, I can’t remember what he said needed replacing. Lower block?, Short block? -something like that.

As far as the PCV, I probably do need to change that. Isn’t it part of the 50,000 mile service? I changed it around 65,000 miles, when I did the fuel filter, rear differential oil, and transmission oil. There is no excuse for not having changed the PCV. I think that it’s about $5, and easy to replace. I guess I didn’t know exactly what it did.

The seals were replaced when the timing belt was done, and it is not overheating or leaking.

These things would be proactive, so we won’t be stranded somewhere.

Also, the pricing may be way off (and sounds like it is). He was just guessing, and doesn’t deal with the money side of the fixing. I think that he was going to get a quote together for me today. So I’ll have better information tonight. I’ll also find out what the something block was that he was talking about, and why that would also need replacing.

Jon

[mtsmiths]

I trust my neighbor completlely, as he would have no reason to lie to me. Jon

"No reason to lie"? If I look at this statement purely from the Click & Clack perspective my response would be "How big are his boat payments? :cool:

[1 Lucky Texan]

"No reason to lie"? If I look at this statement purely from the Click & Clack perspective my response would be "How big are his boat payments? :cool:

 

hah!

 

OT - those guys have cameo voice work in Cars - fun movie, stick around for the credits too.

 

Carl

[burmzie]

Sorry, I can’t remember what he said needed replacing. Lower block?, Short block? -something like that.

 

As far as the PCV, I probably do need to change that. Isn’t it part of the 50,000 mile service? I changed it around 65,000 miles, when I did the fuel filter, rear differential oil, and transmission oil. There is no excuse for not having changed the PCV. I think that it’s about $5, and easy to replace. I guess I didn’t know exactly what it did.

 

The seals were replaced when the timing belt was done, and it is not overheating or leaking.

 

These things would be proactive, so we won’t be stranded somewhere.

 

Also, the pricing may be way off (and sounds like it is). He was just guessing, and doesn’t deal with the money side of the fixing. I think that he was going to get a quote together for me today. So I’ll have better information tonight. I’ll also find out what the something block was that he was talking about, and why that would also need replacing.

 

Jon

 

Subarus are tricky things. Make sure he is actually a Subaru Mech. Lots of guys say it, but few mean it. I finally have a tech looking at my car. I almost bought a new car too. I invested $500 and problem fixed. Car runs like new. Listen to what these guys are saying as they do know. My 98 Legacy GT has 270,000km on it. I have replaced the engine, timing belt, brakes, lots of sensors, and I wouldn't trade the car for anything. Honestly if you like the looks and the overall condition is good, you can replace the engine, and tranny for about $3000 parts and labour in. Don't get ripped by a friend.

 

Lane

[jhelman]

Ok, now I have some specifics.

 

The reason I was told that the short block will probably need replacing is based on the piston knocking, and oil consumption. He is basing this on his experience with the smell in the coolant resevoir.

Its my option to replace the short block. He said that if I don't, then there's a good chance that in a couple of years I will have to do the work again. So If I keep the block (which includes pistons, crank,...), I can take off $1500 from the quote.

 

The quote that I have is for about $4000. This includes:

Reman DOHC S

Gasket Seal

Plug Cylinder

SB-02-51-02R (gasket kit??)

Radial Ball

various belts

Brake Pads (front and back)

Spark plugs/wires/air filter

After market radiator

Clutch

Machine work (if needed)

 

There is a possibility that the machine work will not be needed.

 

This quote includes the $850 in Labor and about $2900 in parts. I will get the parts lower than list price.

 

At this point I'm going to get the work done.

 

Does anyone have suggestions on whether to do the short block or not?

 

Thanks again for all of the responses.

[1 Lucky Texan]

If you have 'piston slap' it likely will not reduce the lifespan of the engine and certainly is not an immediate concern. Different oil may reduce it too. Oil loss(how much was it again?) could be something as simple as a PCV valve, oil pressure sender leaking, or a bad gasket somwhere(does it drip oil?). If it is blowby (has a compression or leakdown test been done?) that may help swing the decision to get a short block or reman. engine. Also, if a leaking headgasket can be confirmed, it would also point to the possibiltie of a new/reman engine I guess.

 

I think, before spending that kinda money, I'd get a second opinion - even if it cost me $100 .

 

Carl

 

check with Emily at CCR about engines. And Jamie at www.subarugenuineparts.com can get OEM parts discounted - at least use those prices as 'bargaining points' to get your dealership to match part prices.

 

Carl

[ShawnW]

Oil ends up in the coolant recovery tank because of a head gasket failure. PERIOD.

You do not necessarily need to have an engine that overheats to have a head gasket failure either. There are "internal" head gasket failures and "external."

 

BUT>>

 

Make sure its not from the past. These engines are NOTORIOUS for blowing head gaskets and its possible that somebody has already replaced them in the past and neglected to clean out the coolant bottle when they installed them. Pretty shotty work but it happens VERY OFTEN.

 

These engines are tricky, this isnt just some import engine so unless he is at a minimum dealer trained on Subaru's do not let him do the work. His price is pretty typical for a shop but if its a neighbor doing the work in his driveway with no company standing behind the work you could really be up a creek if anything he does isn't perfect. Bent valves, nearly unnoticable warped surfaces and a quad cam engine that most typical mechanics arent used to come to mind.

 

 

..OR... source a rebuilt engine and have him install it (just about anybody can install a Subaru engine).

[jhelman]

I think that he's basing it on the smell in the resevoir more than the black residue. I've had the car since 33,000 miles, and the head gasket has not blown. But at the same time, I haven't payed any attention to the inside of the resevoir.

 

He would be doing the work at his dealership. This will include using a machine that will turn the rotors on the car for the brake work.

[1 Lucky Texan]

I think that he's basing it on the smell in the resevoir more than the black residue. I've had the car since 33,000 miles, and the head gasket has not blown. But at the same time, I haven't payed any attention to the inside of the resevoir.

 

He would be doing the work at his dealership. This will include using a machine that will turn the rotors on the car for the brake work.

 

If there are bubbles coming outta the coolant - you do have a bad HG. That is a shame.

 

At least try to get the dealership to match online dealer prices as suggested above.

 

good luck

 

Carl

[msmithmmx]

The "black stuff" in the radiator means nothing. Keep an eye on it. If you do not have any over heating problems and or a coolant leak then your head gasket is fine. Are you handy, start replacing the wear items as you get time and money (brakes and radiator)?

[nipper]

He knows nothing of subarus. Dont let him touch the car.

Piston slap is just one of those unique subaru sounds. If you never complained about it, at 105,000 miles, you have been living with it, keep on living with it.

Oil consumption, replace the pcv valve with one from subaru.

Gunk in the cooling system (i bet he means the overflow tank) is just that, gunk. Clean the tank refil it and watch.

If your not over heating you dont have a blown Head gasket.

Again your not overheating dont replace the radiator.

 

Honestly, if this man ran a shop i would report him to th BBB. I would even doubt his brake diagnoses.

 

This is what you need

a cooling system flush (non chemical)

If it hasnt been done a tranny flush (mileage maint item).

A PCV Valve.

An oil change.

MAYBE wires (again mileage) but only if you have a damp weather complaint. I mean i can run of a list on any car a mile long at 100,000 miles of things that could be replaced, doesnt mean they NEED replacing.

 

Now lets get back to a question that no one has asked before.

 

You just pulled into my shop. Do you have any complaints about the car way runs?

Answer me the way you would have answered before this guy looked at the car.

 

nipper

[mtsmiths]

 

At this point I'm going to get the work done.

 

Thanks again for all of the responses.

Here's another ressponse DON'T DO IT! This guy is either an idiot* or a crook.

 

* At least regarding Subarus.

 

As has been stated several times, Subarus are 'quirky' and you should only let someone who REALLY knows them work on your car. That also means avoiding quick lube joints.

 

Take your car to the nearest SUBARU dealer and have a coolent flush, an oil/filter change, do the PCV valve yourself and go on your trip with the $2700.00 difference in your pocket.

 

Don't let this guy even LOOK under your hood again. This kind of 'expert' misinformation really p!sses me off!

[jon38iowa]

I have a '98 Legacy Outback Ltd with 105,000 miles. The alternator just went, and I had my neighbor replace it (he's a Subaru mechanic). He noticed many things that are wrong with it, and said that I will need a new upper block, head gasket, while were in there, clutch, plug wires,...

The front and back brakes will also need replacement.

 

He was thinking that he could do it all for around 4 to 5K.

 

My question is, is it worth it to spend this money on a car that has this many miles? The timing belt and water pump have less than 10,000 miles.

 

Other than some cosmetic problems (paint peeling around hood scoop), the car has been awesome.

 

I trust my neighbor completlely, as he would have no reason to lie to me.

 

Should I fix it? or should I look into getting a newer outback with around 30k miles? Will my subie start to become a money pit at this point?

 

Thanks a lot,

 

Jon

I recomend determining first if you like this car; if so then I would take it to another mechanic for a second opinion,moreover, perhaps some of these repairs can done over time and thus put less of a blow on your budget.

I have had to put three thousand dollars in my '99 forester over the past two years, but thats ok with me because it is high mileage. These cars are well made and even though yours needs this much work, it is likely it would last another 100K with little other problems (with quality maintenance of course) .

Good Luck,

John

[jhelman]

ok, ok, ok I'll get a second opinion from a shop that I've been to before.

 

I didn't mean for this to be a thread to rip on my neighbor, but....

 

Just to clarify, the HG has not blown. The diagnoses was based on 'experience', and was determined to be closed to failing bases on the symptoms.

 

Thus, the not relying on the car for a 350 mile trip each way with my family.

 

I have no doubt that the brakes would be in need of repair. When I had work done 3 years ago, they said that the front pads/rotors needed work. The brakes, and clutch are original to the car, which in Seattle is quite good (we have many steep hills).

[ninjaben43]

listen to nipper man. my wife had a 97 2.5 gt that went 278,000 miles and the whole time we had it all of these problems were there. to answer your original q, keep the car if you like it, there is no reason to get a new one if you plain ol dont need it. your car will tell you when it is time to replace all of this ish (when it fails or starts to act out of the ordinary). now if you want to do all of this work in one swoop, go ahead... it will be cheaper in the long run to have it all done when the engine is out. BUT,fron reading this thread, i dont think anything NEEDS to be done at all.