Predicted Reliability

[jon38iowa]

Did anyone notice the most recent issue of CR? The legendary Toyota, due to issues with three models(2007), has now slipped to # 3. Subaru has now taken the #2 slot behind Honda.

[Towel Rail]

Toyota has been outgrowing their britches for years now, and it's starting to affect quality. Their customer service seems to be helping them, though. Contrast with VW...

[JStamberg]

Did anyone notice the most recent issue of CR? The legendary Toyota, due to issues with three models(2007), has now slipped to # 3. Subaru has now taken the #2 slot behind Honda.

 

 

I noticed... I thought about doing a jig like the banana there, but I refrained.

[porcupine73]

Banana perhaps! Fortunately Subaru is just assembling the Camry's in Indiana at this point, not engineering them..... although AFIAK Toyota owns some portion of Subaru now. Better than when GM owned a portion though no doubt (in my opinion).

[GeneralDisorder]

Honda reliability is far, far over rated IMO. My experience has been about the same as any other vehicle on the road. Newer Subaru's (after the last of the EJ22's..) are no exception.

 

For some reason, the golden era for Honda, Toyota, and Subaru seemed to be the late 80's and early 90's. After that the engineers started encorporating technologies that didn't get enough testing or something. The drive to compete bites the consumer hard at times.

 

GD

[who1981]

The thing that Subaru has way over Honda is the ease of repair and maintenance. It's like Subs were designed to be mechanic friendly (for the most part), perhaps a page from the rally book. Even down to the longitudinally mounted engine...just so much easier to work on than anything else these days.

[nipper]

Toyotas problem is the "damn the torpedos, full steam ahead" attitude they have developed. They want to outsell ford, and eventually outsell GM, no matter the cost, to be #1 seller in the world.

 

When you do this, quality suffers. Subaru, Ford, Hyunday have increased quality over the years. Ford is selling less product then they used to, so it has given them a little breathing room to atttack quality issues, and its worked.

 

SUbaru and hyunday are small mfgs and can sweat the details.

 

Look for major quality improvements at Mopar and GM in the next year or two. We may be down, but we will beat them at thier own game.

 

nipper

[jon38iowa]

My employer provides me a work car. Recently I was given an '05, Loaded Camery and it was the most uncomfortable car I have ever riden in! The seat had more adjustments then any car I have ever seen, but it made no difference. The head restraint were permantly tilted in slightly, so my upper back could never completely go back without craning my neck. I was very happy when they gave me a chevy! Shocking as that sounds, I'd rather drive junk, then be miserable.

[jon38iowa]

T

Look for major quality improvements at Mopar and GM in the next year or two. We may be down, but we will beat them at thier own game.

 

nipper

I think the Big Three should merge, and make the best cars and trucks on the planet! Or least, equal to Subaru.

[who1981]

Toyotas problem is the "damn the torpedos, full steam ahead" attitude they have developed. They want to outsell ford, and eventually outsell GM, no matter the cost, to be #1 seller in the world.

 

When you do this, quality suffers. Subaru, Ford, Hyunday have increased quality over the years. Ford is selling less product then they used to, so it has given them a little breathing room to atttack quality issues, and its worked.

 

SUbaru and hyunday are small mfgs and can sweat the details.

 

Look for major quality improvements at Mopar and GM in the next year or two. We may be down, but we will beat them at thier own game.

 

nipper

 

First quarter this year Toyota DID outsell GM, giving them the lead worldwide.

[bulwnkl]

For some reason, the golden era for Honda, Toyota, and Subaru seemed to be the late 80's and early 90's.

Late 80's Japanese Yen was fairly weak against the dollar while their economy was very strong. Thus, they were making very, very good money selling cars here. Thus, more could go into engineering and QC. Things have changed since then and they're forced to change how they build cars if they wish to maintain price point in the market.

 

Toyota has done a brilliant job keeping their quality as high as they have, but their explosive growth has certainly hurt their ability to create the culture that exists in their traditional, core Japanese factories. Combine this with the factors in the paragraph above and the fact that the American nameplates are trying hard to improve quality (Buick has been in the top 3 quality-wise for years now, often better than Honda/Acura, Toyota/Lexus, and M- and you have little better than high-average quality from Toyota.

 

They and Honda have been living off their years-out-of-date reputations for quite a while now.

[Towel Rail]

I've read some very interesting articles about how the culture at Toyota (and other Japanese companies) has changed in the last decade or so. Japanese people are much less inclined to work themselves to death for their companies, and the management is struggling to find ways to keep the workers as enthusiastic as they were in the 1970s/1980s.

 

They're also questioning whether the Toyoda family should allow the management and subsidiaries to have more authority.

 

Bad influence from us Americans, I guess.

[Towel Rail]

Kind of OT, but the cool thing about the used car market is that used cars are more of a known quantity than new cars. Time has shown whether or not they're reliable, and where their faults lie. So you'll need to fix more things when you buy one, but you already have an idea what to keep an eye on, and about how long it will last if you take care of it. Plus, they're way cheaper than new cars.

 

- Scott

[Durania]

Did anyone notice the most recent issue of CR? The legendary Toyota, due to issues with three models(2007), has now slipped to # 3. Subaru has now taken the #2 slot behind Honda.

What is your source for this? I would like to give it a good read.

[Towel Rail]

What is your source for this? I would like to give it a good read.

 

I assume he means Consumer Reports.

[jon38iowa]

What is your source for this? I would like to give it a good read.

Consumer Reports. December, issue page 6.

[schlit]

One little article and you think Subaru is the best in the world....come back to reality guys.

 

I have a Honda and a Subaru in the garage. By far, we trust the Honda more even though it has 40,000 miles more than the Sub which is more likely to strand us. My honda is easier to work on, get parts, and is cheaper to fix. Several others I know have the same sentiment.

[jon38iowa]

One little article and you think Subaru is the best in the world....come back to reality guys.

 

I have a Honda and a Subaru in the garage. By far, we trust the Honda more even though it has 40,000 miles more than the Sub which is more likely to strand us. My honda is easier to work on, get parts, and is cheaper to fix. Several others I know have the same sentiment.

 

 

I never said anything of the sort; The Honda is rated #1 and I pointed that out..

[idosubaru]

the Sub which is more likely to strand us.

too bad you bought an EJ25, you're not the first stung by that. sell it, never buy subaru again and you'll be golden!

[86subaru]

well then i guess i should tell my wife that our 97 awd legacy L wagon is junk and we should scrap it + my 95 legacy also , and buy the toyota land cruiser + a new toyota truck for me,

[Bserk]

Interesting thread and i have to put in my 2 cents.

 

If any of you are in my age bracket (50) you will remember Detroit's first serious attempt at beating the imports. The Pinto and the Vega are what Im referring to here, and I distinctly remember reading the Consumer Reports article on these cars after they were introduced. CR based their 'frequency of repair' rating on previous small cars from these companies, meaning the Vega got a stellar rating, based on the deservedly great reputation of the Chevy II/Novas... I cant imagine any arguments, even from a die-hard Chevy fan, that the Vega was the biggest piece of s**t on 4 wheels. I wonder how many people got burned after relying on CR's opinion of that car. So much for my faith in CR, and there have been many more examples like that over the years.

 

I think every car company around has had a blooper or 2. My experience has been 90% Nissan for nearly 30 years, and I can tell you which ones are bullet proof and which are not so great. Nissan's quality, IMO, peaked in the mid-90s for the most part. The 91-94 Sentra with the 1.6 L engine, either standard or AT, is amazing. In these parts, the only thing that brings them down is rust. And they hold up better than average even to that. But some of the newer models (02-06 Altima comes right to mind) are absolute crap. I get the feeling Toyota is in a similar situation, and thats sad.

 

I bought a 96 2.5 OB without knowing it wasnt one of Subies best efforts, but the car is awesome other than the engine issues, and I'll get the bugs out. I hope Subaru is not dragged down into the pits with the rest, but I fear that whatever you buy, the days of 300,000 mile bullet proof cars is lost to the the almighty need to make the most $$$ while spending the least

[GeneralDisorder]

One little article and you think Subaru is the best in the world....come back to reality guys.

 

I have a Honda and a Subaru in the garage. By far, we trust the Honda more even though it has 40,000 miles more than the Sub which is more likely to strand us. My honda is easier to work on, get parts, and is cheaper to fix. Several others I know have the same sentiment.

 

It's YOU that needs a reality check.

 

You are basing your opinion on two vehicles. Hardly representative of anything.

 

I know of plenty of Honda's that were just as bad as anything Subaru has poorly built. Or for that matter any other company. My girlfriend had a 2004 Accord - tranny went out at 78k. And I just helped a guy on the side of the road who's distributor died on his 95 Accord at 80k. He was a mechanic - has owned a shop for 22 years. He knew exactly what was wrong with it of course because it happens all the time with those engines.

 

And if you think that anything transverse is easier to work on than a Subaru you are dead wrong. That's just plain silly talk right there. There's no Honda on the planet that's easier to work on than an EJ series Subaru. I'm a mechanic - I do this every day and have been since I was a kid. I've seen a lot of makes and models and the reason I DO NOT drive Honda or Toyota cars is because transverse vehicles are simply more difficult and time consuming to work on. And I hate FWD. Give me 4WD for traction, or RWD for fun. FWD is for grandmothers in Florida

 

The "cost to repair" argument is baseless unless you live in an area where one or the other is not popular. There are some areas of the country where Subaru's aren't as plentiful - for me that would mean driving probably a Toyota truck or a Samuri etc. Here Subaru's are cheap and plentiful so that's what I drive.

 

GD

[bulwnkl]

And if you think that anything transverse is easier to work on than a Subaru you are dead wrong. That's just plain silly talk right there. There's no Honda on the planet that's easier to work on than an EJ series Subaru.

 

Though I like Subarus and love our Baja (nearly as much as our old BRAT, but not), this is an argument my experience prevents me following along with. Now, I've not had a bunch of Subarus to get experience from; only 5 (3 EJ motors, 1 ER, and the EA in the BRAT). On the other side, I've had inline 4s (and an inline 6) from Alfa Romeo, Honda, Mitsubishi (both gas and turbo-diesel), Mopar, Nissan/Datsun, SAAB, and even a little experience with a Toyota of my brother's.

 

Now, of all these, each have their quirks, their peculiarities, their easy things and their hard things, but I find Subaru engines more complicated or difficult or inconvenient to repair and maintain overall than most. They have what seems like twice as many parts as the inlines (like 2 crankcase halves instead of 1 block, 2 heads instead of 1, 2 cams on an SOHC and 4 on a DOHC instead of 1 and 2, cam towers that are separate from the heads and the block/crankcase, and so on) and the maintenance items in general are in less or merely equally convenient places. Now, everyone has their preferences and such, but to say that inline engines are harder to maintain and repair is just silly.

[GeneralDisorder]

Now, everyone has their preferences and such, but to say that inline engines are harder to maintain and repair is just silly.

 

That's not what I said at all. I said TRANSVERSE engine's are harder to work on. That goes for transverse inline engines as well as transverse V8's, V6, and so on. Alternators and starters are harder to get at, transmissions are harder to remove, timing belts are often nearly imposible to get to, and so on. Having 2 heads is no problem - V6's and V8's have two of everything just as a Subaru engine. And I very much enjoy working on longitudinal inline 4's - like the Toyota 20R, 22R, and 22RE. Same with the Samuri.

 

Transverse means the engine is sideways with the transmission to the side and underneath. This layout sucks from all perspectives IMO. And most mechanics will agree with me.

 

GD

[bulwnkl]

I like longitudinal layouts as well. Though, my SAAB, Mopars, and Honda (all transverse) were all at least no more difficult, and sometimes easier, to perform repairs and maintenance on. I agree that the Subaru timing belt seems easier to do than the Neon, for example, because you must undo the motor mount on the Neon. However, that ends up taking no more time nor is it more difficult, except for needing a floor jack and a 2x4 or other block, than doing the ER-27 in my XT-6, at least for me. Things like valve cover seals, spark plug seals on the DOHCs, valve adjustments and so on (which like to leak on Subarus as we all know) are easier to do on an inline engine in general regardless which direction the engine is oriented. The half as many thing is pertinent IMO because twice as many components = twice as many to repair and, in the case of seals at least, twice as likely to have one fail.